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Author Topic: How far does the Dwarven Language go?  (Read 1884 times)

sculleywr

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How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« on: August 28, 2016, 10:57:39 pm »

I've been on a tangent here lately ever since I learned that there were real constructed languages in the world aside from things like Esperanto and the Elvish language in LOTR and Klingon in Star Trek. So I have started to wonder, exactly how far does Dwarf Fortress take language? I have no clue if this is a thread already and there are far too many threads to really get into this. But here are a few questions I've had:

1. Does Dwarfish in DF have a structure, with grammar and syntax, or is it purely used as a naming convention?

2. Obviously there are phonological constants in the Dwarfish words, with particular structures to how syllables are created, the use of diphthongs and such things. If there is more to it, what is it?

3. And possibly the most dwarfish question of them all, if it doesn't exist as a structured language yet, how many people would want to try to make one using the vocabulary Toady has given us and just run with it for the pure insane !!Science!! of the thing?

Maybe I'm just crazy, but it would be hilarious to learn or create a language for use in Dwarf Fortress stories. I'd learn it purely for the purpose of writing out the stories for community fortresses (don't worry, I'd translate it for everyone) just to add that extra touch of Dwarfiness to the posts.
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I had one get happy again... After producing a bed made from their own husband's body.
I once  had a fort called paddledbottom in the plains of spanking founded by the painful punishment
And so, in a thread about cointainers with usele

jecowa

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2016, 11:12:23 pm »

I think their language is only used for generating proper nouns.

I think this is the entirety of the dwarven language:
https://github.com/HugoLuman/Dwarf-Fortress-Vanilla-Raws/blob/master/objects/language_DWARF.txt
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2016, 11:16:45 pm »

Further work is kind of planned, but probably won't be for a long time yet (unless a fell linguistic mood suddenly hits).
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FortressBuilder

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 04:31:44 am »

There was an interesting discussion about this last year: Dwarven Linguistics Core Project
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Alev

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2016, 02:07:51 pm »

1: No, it's only for generating some names.

2: We don't know what the phonological system of the wordset "language" is (especially not what the vowel diacritics indicate), though I can construct this inventory looking through the words. Using XSAMPA:
/m n N/ [1]
/b t d k g/ [2]
/(ts)/ [3]
/f v T s z S/ [4] [5]
/r l/

/i u/
/e o/
/a/ [5]
[1] Interestingly, the velar nasal which is presumably what <ng> represents is only attested word-initially.
[2] Labial voicing gap.
[3] <c> is a grapheme, it probably does not represent an affricate.
[4] Either only one interdental fricative, or /T D/ both are represented by <th>. If there's only one, typologically I'd expect /D/ but I'll have to check that.
[5] /S/ but no /Z/, not so surprising.   
[6] A standard S5 T5 system – however we don't know what the diacritics represent. DFWiki gives a sort of tonal system, I find that fairly unlikely for a few reasons (the relative rarity of the diacritics, and whoever added that has three non-contour tones, plus some sort of "neutral" tone). The most probably answer is Toady just added some in randomly.

3: It's been tried before as FortressBuilder said. I wouldn't mind trying again.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 02:52:44 pm by Alev »
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sculleywr

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 11:36:08 pm »

I've read some of the previous thread on the subject (11 pages is quite a bit when you have a school bus to drive in a town an hour away). One thing I didn't see asked at least as yet is something about a writing system.

I just created the thread as kind of a mental exercise because I like thinking about these kinds of things. I watched a YouTube by a guy who goes by Artefexian about building a "conlang", which is what Dwarfish would be (until I know what the name of the language is I'll just call it that). One of the more interesting parts to me was the writing system, which is shaped in most part by the medium in which one writes. Up until the last major update came out with books and scrolls and papermaking, I had assumed that the medium would be stone, or possibly clay, since it seemed that most of the written communication occurred in slabs and engravings and crafts. If we wanted to look at the updates as a sort of historical progression of their writing form, would we assume the writing system they use would be mostly straight lines that lend themselves to carving more quickly and efficiently?

Also, with Dwarves being more of a showy sort when it comes to something etched in rock, with people becoming legendary engravers and the sort, I would think their language would probably be some sort of logographic text, like the Hieroglyphs of Egypt in our world. Remember, these are just theories. It appears that the linguistic part of DF is something that Toady wants to do personally, like Tolkien did, but there's no reason we couldn't have fun with this kind of thinking.

Diacritics is something I'm only just now learning about myself as relates to language, since the languages I am fluent in do not make use of them. I'm currently learning Arabic, which uses diacritics to denote the vowel sounds (or in some cases lack thereof). Since the text we have uses the Roman Alphabet, which I doubt would exist in the DF world, and we have no clue what exactly the alphabet would look like, I have a few theories:

1. Elves would probably use a flowing curvy script with few straight lines. I theorize this because the hippies would probably use leaves to write on, and straight lines tend to tear the weak material. This would still be true if they used something like brushes as utensils for writing, since that is more conducive to flowing lines.

2. Dwarves, as I said earlier, would probably have a more straight-line based writing system, possibly logographic, with maybe a featural alphabet to supplement the primary logographs (think the Korean writing system in the transition period when Hangul was first introduced). I would think it might look something like the Cuneiform alphabet, because the writing medium will heavily influence the alphabet. Now this might be different if we assume that dwarves had paper writing from the beginning as it shows in world-gen, since you can literally begin making paper in the first year.

3. I'm not a good adventurer in game, so I don't get much information on the culture of humans and their writing mediums in game, and even more so for the goblins, since getting to explore a goblin fort requires surviving a fight with the goblins which requires not starving to death before you get the party or skills to survive the attack. I'm not yet very good at that. I'm more of a fortress guy.
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I had one get happy again... After producing a bed made from their own husband's body.
I once  had a fort called paddledbottom in the plains of spanking founded by the painful punishment
And so, in a thread about cointainers with usele

Alev

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 07:30:43 pm »

@sculleywr: Are you by chance active on any of the conlanging forums (ZBB, CBB, /r/conlangs, CWS, maybe the CONLANG mailing list)?
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Nagidal

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2016, 07:59:52 pm »

I think this is the entirety of the dwarven language:
https://github.com/HugoLuman/Dwarf-Fortress-Vanilla-Raws/blob/master/objects/language_DWARF.txt

Why is the character encoding messed up? How are the Japanese characters mapped onto the special characters used in the DF's languages?
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jecowa

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2016, 08:12:21 pm »

It seems the BitBucket thinks that the encoding is "Shift-JS" for some reason. I think with ASCII, the text editor has to guess a little with what the encoding is. In my text editor it shows up as "Western (Mac OS Roman)", which is what my text editor defaults to for text files that it isn't sure about.
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King Kitteh

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Re: How far does the Dwarven Language go?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2016, 08:13:05 pm »

Someone made a song using the ingame language once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1gF0uhHsqk

But yeah, nothing more than names ingame.
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