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Author Topic: Default orders  (Read 2457 times)

Libash_Thunderhead

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Default orders
« on: September 17, 2016, 10:22:47 pm »

Maybe some of them can have switches, but anyway, the ideas:

1. When your fort run out of booze, they should be able to brew for them selves, unless there's no still or materials, even if you don't order them to.

2. If a nobel want a hammer, the smith will try to make one, unless he can't, or you explicitly order him not to.

3. If their clothes are worn out, the manage should have the option to order random clothes to be made...

I know there are many similar features. My point is the player shouldn't do evertyhing for them, the survival isntinct should do.


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Bumber

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2016, 12:47:41 am »

Sounds annoying. 1 and 3 can be done by work orders. 2 has no way of knowing what materials are needed, nor which workshop to use.
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Libash_Thunderhead

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2016, 04:31:23 am »

Well, I mean default actions, like some kind of AI.
It doesn't have to be perfect, just provide an options so the overseers(players) don't have to do everything for them.
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Insanegame27

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2016, 04:40:49 am »

I'd be happy if you got a pop-up box when a noble mandates something. Too many times have I had a mandate lost in the spam of 'urist mcFrightened cancels [da da da da da]'. If the popup had a prompt to go to the manager screen to make a new x of that item preselected, that'd be good too.
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Salmeuk

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2016, 07:05:39 am »

I think something like a popup that asks y/n or even a little options menu would be better than automatic work. So the player can still be the final word on what happens with their limited cloth stockpiles or whatever.

So when your nobles mandate three cabinets, you see something like:

Code: [Select]
______________________________
|                            |
|    Create work order for   |
|     three cabinets (y/n)?  |
|                            |
|____________________________|

then, if you choose yes,
Code: [Select]
______________________________
|                            |
|    Select Material:        |
|       1.                   |
|       2.                   |
|       3.                   |
|                            |
|    (f)ilter    (d)ismiss   |
|____________________________|

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Evans

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 09:33:08 am »

3. If their clothes are worn out, the manage should have the option to order random clothes to be made...

I know there are many similar features. My point is the player shouldn't do evertyhing for them, the survival isntinct should do.
I agree that level of micromanaging in fort is beyond hope.

For a clothing however I would recommend expanding LOCATIONS, creating "Clothing Store".

To put it simply, a meeting hall that has a cloth storage, a loom and a cloth workshop build into its area;
Weaver and clothmaker are assigned to it.
When a citizen's clothes are in tatters he goes to that location and has new clothes made for him from available materials in the size that fits him/her.
His old clothes are automatically passed to the location and a weaver tries to recover thread for them (let's say 2 worn clothes items are needs and a chance of recovering a single thread roll is 25%)

I seriously don't understand why I have to keep ordering clothes for my citizens and storing them for future use when this could be done automatically.

And oh yeah. In Cloth Shop menu let us set allowed materials.

The more non-essential jobs automation the better.
Brewing could be handled in the same manner - another location, "Canteen" that has a food storage, still, kitchen.
it has a cook and a brewer assigned and kicks into action when there are less than XX drinks or prepared meals available in the entire fortress.
It should have "Prepare meals" option with Y/N setting to avoid certain situations.


Basically LOCATIONS are the way to go. Things like food/clothes management should be automated and that is not even a topic for a discussion.

Edit:
I actually think I should post that suggestion about expanding locations into a separate tread.
I mean locations are already in the game - let's just take them further than just a tavern and a temple and a library.

Would be totally cool to see goblin visitors entering the fort with the hope of buying clothes! :D
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 09:55:02 am by Evans »
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Libash_Thunderhead

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2016, 11:42:27 pm »

I think something like a popup that asks y/n or even a little options menu would be better than automatic work. So the player can still be the final word on what happens with their limited cloth stockpiles or whatever.

The whole point is automatic. Because I think Dwarves are creatures with thoughts and ideas. If the king has already given the order, they may rush(or wait for days before the deadline) to do the jobs instead of (always) waiting for the overseer to assign the job. If someone think it is too much, there can be an option to enable/disable it. Like I said, it doesn't have to be perfect, because currently dwarves already do stupid things, for example, hunters and fisherdwarves, so why can't clothiers and brewers? If you have played df for years, you might also want to focus on things like designing wihtout having to care too much about their day to day lives.

Not that I don't like the dialogue/pop-up solution, it is just a different feature.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 11:45:19 pm by Libash_Thunderhead »
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Deboche

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 05:52:04 am »

This has been suggested before and I'm always for it. It can also help manage a lot of other things:

Auto collect clay if clay < x
Auto brew if booze < x
Dwarves place orders of clothes as they start to get worn out or auto produce clothes if specific item < x(this x refers to available clothes up for grabs)
Auto make ash
Auto turn rock nuts into soap only if rock nuts > x (I for one am a bit paranoid about running out of rock nuts)
Auto cook seeds if seed > x

etc

I'm not so crazy about the noble giving orders for you. Maybe the order could show up in a different color on the manager screen and you'd have to approve it. That way the noble can specify the material and such.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:53:38 am by Deboche »
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Evans

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 07:14:33 am »

I really think the location are the way to go.

Plan them once, assign dwarves and be done with it.

Over time we could have more and more of those places doing something more practical than just pouring drinks.

Heavy micromanagement takes away from the fun of Dwarf Fortress - really there should be more to do than just "brew drinks" and "make cloth shirt".

Noble mandates are much rarer and randomized, so that is really not a big issue.

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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Bumber

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 06:46:02 pm »

The whole point is automatic. Because I think Dwarves are creatures with thoughts and ideas. If the king has already given the order, they may rush(or wait for days before the deadline) to do the jobs instead of (always) waiting for the overseer to assign the job. If someone think it is too much, there can be an option to enable/disable it. Like I said, it doesn't have to be perfect, because currently dwarves already do stupid things, for example, hunters and fisherdwarves, so why can't clothiers and brewers? If you have played df for years, you might also want to focus on things like designing wihtout having to care too much about their day to day lives.

Not that I don't like the dialogue/pop-up solution, it is just a different feature.
If we give too much power to the dwarves, there's not much for the overseer to do. Dwarf profession selection, for instance, is already planned to be automated.

As the will of the site's government, it seems right that the overseer should be signing and vetoing mandates and laws. For example, the king, under pressure from his people, ponders whether or not he should reduce the sentence for failed mandates (because beatings and imprisonment hinder productivity, while being spat at doesn't. The other nobles will probably push for repeal upon repeated failures.) An "always accept" option can be used for hands-off / no pause forts, but otherwise it allows for a richness of meaningful choice that the current mandate system lacks.
"Do I waste resources on something the fort doesn't really need, or risk the unhappy power-crazed duke staging a coup upon reaching his wit's end?"

Fisherdwarves and hunters are notorious.

This has been suggested before and I'm always for it. It can also help manage a lot of other things:

Auto collect clay if clay < x
Auto brew if booze < x
...
This just needs a good set of default orders that can be saved and loaded into the current work order system.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 06:56:32 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Deboche

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2016, 03:28:52 am »

This just needs a good set of default orders that can be saved and loaded into the current work order system.
Do you mean we can make those ourselves?
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Bumber

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2016, 05:01:59 am »

This just needs a good set of default orders that can be saved and loaded into the current work order system.
Do you mean we can make those ourselves?
Everything but cooking seeds, I think. See: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158287.0

We don't have save/load capability yet, though. DFHack might add it eventually, like they did with stockpiles, if Toady doesn't get on it soon.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

Deboche

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2016, 06:07:09 am »

This just needs a good set of default orders that can be saved and loaded into the current work order system.
Do you mean we can make those ourselves?
Everything but cooking seeds, I think. See: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158287.0

We don't have save/load capability yet, though. DFHack might add it eventually, like they did with stockpiles, if Toady doesn't get on it soon.
Cool thanks this is great
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Libash_Thunderhead

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2016, 11:29:07 pm »

Yeah, maybe a dfhack script is the best solution, for now.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Default orders
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2016, 07:07:44 am »

For save/load capability in vanilla, a macro could work for work orders - though across different forts workshop linking might be a slight problem.

But if you mean the [AUTOMATIC] tag things like tanning a hide have, those require raw editing, either manually or with utilities. (Putnam's macroreduce does this, for instance.)

Either way, I think that list is too much to always keep on for each and every player, from the viewpoint of both "survival without direction" and "overseer autonomy" - even just clothesmaking seems questionable, given the possibility for armour instead and how some dwarves hate wearing bad clothes more than being naked.

Nobles sticking together and mandating things via manager, mandating brewing alcohol if there's none, additionally harvesting plants laying around in addition to farm plots (kinda silly to have dwarf starve to death while sitting on top of an apple tree)  is about as much as I can see their autonomy go in case of absent overseer - and even then, I'm not sure the alcohol thing isn't too much because of overriding need for skill/labour(especially when water's available).
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