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Author Topic: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away  (Read 1751 times)

Evans

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Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« on: September 19, 2016, 02:21:04 pm »

Seriously now.

I was visited by a giantess recently.
The beasts like dragons, rocs, giants etc need to be able to retreat when injured.
They never do so in fort mode instead being turned into a pulp and later into ornaments.

Why?
Giants might be dumb, but they are not suicidal. And dragons should be smart already.

These are the creatures that in Legends do an awful lot of stuff, including stealing items, razing cities, becoming objects of worship etc.
I don't see why this is not modeled in Fortress Mode once an 'object of worship' enters player fort, they turn into suicidal berserk beasts caring for no food or precious items.
Once a monster suffers serious injury it should run away, at least some of them should.




I find the combat log below to be disturbing. How can I set her free and let her go somewhere else from my fort?
The only way I know of is to retire it while she is chained...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 09:51:42 am by Evans »
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Evans

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2016, 03:31:32 pm »

I have just had a second, male giant this time, visiting my fortress.

He punched both arms on one of my haulers into gore. My hauler bite him in the head and shook him around till giant was dead.

What is going on with current DF version? x_X"

Edit:
I mean it. Really.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 03:56:14 pm by Evans »
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Wyrdean

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2016, 08:22:45 pm »

Kitten op....
Though let me tell you a story of long shanks the dragon slaying kitten.

So I was in legend's mode looking around decided to look at all the dragons history because they uselly have cool story's and I was not disappointed,
I do not have the combat log but I know that the fight took a few years to complete,  the first hits by the kitten hit the dragons eyes blinding her
then over the course of a few year the kitten slowly killed the dragon.
The kitten herself almost died over a hundred times losing both the front legs, one of the back legs, and an ear.
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Evans

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2016, 07:29:50 am »

Any person that likes a Cheshire Cat gets +10 to awesomeness in my books.

As for the matter described I think "giants" as a race are a failure and it should be corrected somehow.
Unless we are going for "Attack on Titans" type of gameplay, they should run away in terror once seriously injured.
And not be knocked out by a pussy...
Logged
getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

GoblinCookie

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 02:58:13 pm »

Megabeasts should be more cautious and flee towards the map edge once they meet serious organized resistance.  There is currently a massive discrepancy between the cautious way that megabeasts behave most of time in worldgen, by which they with a few devastating exceptions tend to snipe a few dwarves or animals before fleeing back to their lairs and the suicidal way they always behave in dwarf fortress mode.  The probable reason for this however is that Toady One wants to see megabeasts in the game but does not have an AI sufficient to have to behave in the calculating fashion they are supposed to.

Probably we need to define their motivations in order to accomplish anything.  The megabeasts need to make an estimate of the threat the player's fortress forces pose to them and then give them a specific objective to complete.  We compare their motivation level against their threat level to determine when they flee, completing their objective greatly reduces their motivation so the threat level matters more.  Taking serious injuries greatly increases their threat level while slaying fortress soldiers (not random civilians) reduces threat level potentially to nothing or below, so that the megabeast will simply kill everybody until it owns the whole fortress. 

This creates a whole set of dilemmas, it may be better to not fight the megabeast and let it just take what it wants under some circumstances.  That is because they tend to think that the soldiers they face in combat are the best soldiers you have, if they trounce them without injury they see no reason to fear whatever else you might have to offer and so can decide to take everything there is.  However in the case of [INTELLIGENT] megabeasts it might make sense to engage in diplomacy with it, allowing it to take what it wants without a fight while if were have a megabeast that has trounced you, it might make sense to offer it citizenship and a high-level position in return for it not killing everybody. 
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Evans

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 03:44:25 pm »

The probable reason for this however is that Toady One wants to see megabeasts in the game but does not have an AI sufficient to have to behave in the calculating fashion they are supposed to.
But?
Aren't siege creatures running away once injured? Entire groups of recruits tend to experience mortal fear once they see their capitans being pulped by elephant men and run away shortly after.
I think that AI is here already - just for some reason Megabeasts and the like are not using it.
I basically dropped that giantess on a pile of very expensive items and a path to the edge of the map open.
Instead of stealing anything she got pwned by that kitty on the chain.

Quote
Probably we need to define their motivations in order to accomplish anything.  The megabeasts need to make an estimate of the threat the player's fortress forces pose to them and then give them a specific objective to complete.  We compare their motivation level against their threat level to determine when they flee, completing their objective greatly reduces their motivation so the threat level matters more.  Taking serious injuries greatly increases their threat level while slaying fortress soldiers (not random civilians) reduces threat level potentially to nothing or below, so that the megabeast will simply kill everybody until it owns the whole fortress. 
That would be awesome.
I would add to that, once MB is successful for the first time, it would be more likely to come back later as they do in the legends.

Quote
This creates a whole set of dilemmas, it may be better to not fight the megabeast and let it just take what it wants under some circumstances.  That is because they tend to think that the soldiers they face in combat are the best soldiers you have, if they trounce them without injury they see no reason to fear whatever else you might have to offer and so can decide to take everything there is.  However in the case of [INTELLIGENT] megabeasts it might make sense to engage in diplomacy with it, allowing it to take what it wants without a fight while if were have a megabeast that has trounced you, it might make sense to offer it citizenship and a high-level position in return for it not killing everybody.
Basically create a stockpile of prepared food outside hoping that the beast will eat roasts instead of making roasts of your citizens.
Or make it an object of worship for your fort, and in exchange it takes residence and your dwarves constantly bring it food and drinks to keep it pleased, or it eats them otherwise?

Hell, it would make a greater difference to the gameplay than locations and new tree system.
Suddenly the dragon could became a god of the dwarves and who knows? Maybe let them forge some legendary items with help of it's dragonfire?

10/10, would gladly make offerings from a captured siege races to satiate my new resident object of worship hunger.



Somehow a scene from Kohan 2 comes to my mind:
Drauga Warrior: - foolish Ceyah! We've come here to worship our god!
Drauga Warrior: - Sakkar is strong! How fares Ahriman?
Melchior: - You can ask him yourself! (kills Drauga)

« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 04:04:34 pm by Evans »
Logged
getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Bumber

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 05:29:25 pm »

The probable reason for this however is that Toady One wants to see megabeasts in the game but does not have an AI sufficient to have to behave in the calculating fashion they are supposed to.
Aren't siege creatures running away once injured? Entire groups of recruits tend to experience mortal fear once they see their capitans being pulped by elephant men and run away shortly after.
I think that AI is here already - just for some reason Megabeasts and the like are not using it.
Invasions, thieves, werebeasts, and seasonal wildlife are known leave the map. Most creatures (including Clowns!) at least move out of sight from their opponents when severely outmatched.

These megabeasts probably won't:
Code: (creature_standard.txt) [Select]
[CREATURE:DRAGON]
[NOFEAR]
[CREATURE:COLOSSUS_BRONZE]
[NOFEAR]
[CREATURE:HYDRA]
[NOFEAR]
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Timeless Bob

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 03:20:49 pm »

So what we're talking about is making megabeast AI basically the same as kobold AI...

Stolen children become megabeast slaves/cultists, and the megabeasts themselves are predisposed to grabbing some item or killing a couple nearby things then skedaddling off to the map edge once more.
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peasant cretin

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2016, 02:54:21 pm »

Just a thing to add in about cats. They do have an OP interaction that causes displacement. They've managed to weaponize the cloak.
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Vattic

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2016, 09:55:29 pm »

So what we're talking about is making megabeast AI basically the same as kobold AI...

Stolen children become megabeast slaves/cultists, and the megabeasts themselves are predisposed to grabbing some item or killing a couple nearby things then skedaddling off to the map edge once more.
I wouldn't want to see them as cautious as a kobold. They should be as cautious as their relative power demands. I'm not sure about kobolds, but don't dwarves already assess their chances when getting in or running from combat?
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2016, 08:55:28 am »

But?
Aren't siege creatures running away once injured? Entire groups of recruits tend to experience mortal fear once they see their capitans being pulped by elephant men and run away shortly after.
I think that AI is here already - just for some reason Megabeasts and the like are not using it.
I basically dropped that giantess on a pile of very expensive items and a path to the edge of the map open.
Instead of stealing anything she got pwned by that kitty on the chain.

Probably because megabeasts are too powerful but also too few in number for the normal system to work. 
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Melting Sky

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2016, 11:23:57 pm »

I'm always up for better AI, but the biggest problem I see with this idea is that generally very few players actually fight mega beasts. A normal mega beast attack consists of a warning that the beast has arrived. Then it maybe kills some unlucky fool of a dwarf that is wandering around on the surface for some reason, then it steps in a cage trap. Challenge and threat averted.

I also think there are some issues with large creatures not being nearly tough enough when it comes to things like grappling. If something the size of a giant gets a hold of a dwarf or cat it should be able to just pulls their arms and legs off like a bug.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 07:26:44 am by Melting Sky »
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ReynTheLord

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 03:59:14 pm »

Oh god, Megabeasts being able to Flee/Have better ai. Seems Rather FUN , And I mean he dwarf fortress sort of fun. But it could be a good thing if you have an encounter with one of them, and you are barely prepared, and you manage to injure it enough to get it to bugger off.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Megabeasts and the like should be able to run away
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2016, 06:36:12 pm »

Ah that awkward moment when a smallish megabeast like a not very impressive giant runs into your map, triggers your defences and runs back out again, when instead it was actually fleeing from the biggest dragon you've ever seen/huge goblin army and the real source of where your attention should be.
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