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Author Topic: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors  (Read 1111 times)

Simons Mith

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Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« on: September 25, 2016, 09:57:39 am »

I logged a bug about dwarf children staying in unpleasant environments - e.g. out of doors when cave-adapted. I feel kids and idle dwarfs should make some attempt to avoid these circumstances.

But the flipside of the same issue crosses over into feature request territory - dwarvish children show no great preference for being with their own family. This suggests 'play with parent/siblings/other dwarves of similar age' or 'visit/be with...' should also be desires, and young dwarfs should possibly have a bias towards spending time in their parents' rooms, and maybe even where they work. But if you do that then features to control behaviour of dwarf children become more needed, such as doors forbidden to children. Also, they only have 'play make believe', play' and 'play with toy' at the moment. There are many other expanded 'play' options, some of which would be easy to implement, some of which would need extra code. Play tag, play hide and seek, play with (item) etc.

So, logging these extra bits here as well as on the bug report.
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Evans

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2016, 10:41:34 am »

What about adding a new location?
Kindergarden

A meeting zone with toy, food and drinks stockpile and a Babysitter occupation?

He/She would play with them and keep them occupied.
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Bumber

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2016, 11:11:20 pm »

What about adding a new location?
Kindergarden

A meeting zone with toy, food and drinks stockpile, wild dogs, wooden spears, and a Babysitter occupation?

He/She would play with flee from them and keep them occupied.
FTFY
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Reelya

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2016, 11:32:28 pm »

I think family structure will end up getting a huge overhaul in the future, and Toady is putting off adding any stuff related to children until he's doing that arc (which would include the upgrades to genetics I assume). Because it's easier to test an entire subsystem all at once rather than piecemeal upgrades to a number of unrelated systems in parallel (which makes noticing bugs a lot more tedious).

But obviously any little ideas we come up with could well be part of that process.

The idea of game interactions is good one, a lot of that could probably be done with the existing interactions system: a game of tag could be considered as a type of "Party", so there are already systems for group events it could be piggybacked on, and people in the game would use the interaction system to organize how the rules of the game work, so the player could zoom in on the game of tag, go frame by frame and observer player's running away from the "it" dwarf, within the right vicinity (e.g. a meeting zone). This might be a good way to do it, because it could be iterated on in self-contained ways. Start with a "Playing a game" activity which is directly based on the (already working) code for parties, then add interactions for those inside that activity.

For children to hang out at "home" might be better if there was some concept of "home" more advanced than individual adult rooms. e.g. have a zone which represents a housing area, and individual rooms can be specified in that zone. Dwarfs allocated to the zone would automatically select bedrooms and the like. This same system could be used for individual dorm rooms, hotels and the like. so it would pay for itself and not just be a gimmick for children.

I think organizing families better is intertwined with how space is organized in dwarf fortresses. Right now we have burrows, zones, rooms, stockpiles and probably a couple of types of space that I'm forgetting about. Possibly overhauling families should come after some sort of improvement in how space is defined in a fortress.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 12:02:09 am by Reelya »
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Deboche

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 06:21:18 am »

It's interesting to think what kind of a society dwarves build for themselves and how that reflects on their children.

Do they have more of a hunter-gatherer approach where they don't give too many orders or punish and just let them run around?

A more puritan/calvinist approach with beatings, strict rules and labour from an early age?

An industrial revolution approach where children are employed for jobs that require tiny hands?

An education system?

Do dwarf children follow in their parents' footsteps, profession-wise? Are children their parents' property? Until what age are they allowed to always be naked, if at all?

Would it be too complex to make this dependent on the parent's or the civ's ethics and/or religion and to have an effect upon the type of adults it produces?
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Reelya

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2016, 06:24:45 am »

If it's going to be modeled like that, then it might be best to make it dynamic. Parents use different methods to influence their children's behavior. This is based on the parent's personalities. But how they influence their children also shifts their children's personalities. End result: culture shapes culture, and there can be culture shifts within a single fortress based on conditions such as economics.

One thing hunter-gatherers lacked was labor scarcity. Since they had excess labor for their needs, there was no reason to require regimentation: you collect resources when they're available, and are free to goof off otherwise. Agrarian societies have much more productivity but also a fairly open-ended ability to soak up labor, at least compared to hunter-gatherers. They also have more in the way of specialized skills that take a lifetime to master.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 06:31:42 am by Reelya »
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Evans

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2016, 08:12:58 am »

Honestly.

Think of it with regard of my suggestion of Kindergarden.

A dwarf assigned to be a babysitter could very slowly educate children in the professions he has well developed.
In the same manner that military demonstrations work, albeit slower.

This would generate a group of educated teenagers and would present some challenges for the player.
Do I need my legendary armorer to produce armor replacements (remember, they will wear out in some future versions) or better to educate children so that in few years I would have 4 expert armourers ready to go?

Also baby sitting could slowly alter personality of children towards that of an adult babysitter, therefore choosing *right* dwarf for the job (the most brave, the least complaining, one in love with art?) would be a matter of how the next generation of dwarves will work and behave in the fort.

I think that aspect of the game is sorely missing. I think I would prefer to have child care and child education implemented before advanced magic. basic magic (some enchantments to improve durability, stats etc would do for now).
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Deboche

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2016, 09:34:03 am »

Parents use different methods to influence their children's behavior.
Also baby sitting could slowly alter personality of children towards that of an adult babysitter, therefore choosing *right* dwarf for the job (the most brave, the least complaining, one in love with art?) would be a matter of how the next generation of dwarves will work and behave in the fort.
All true but before that comes society's standard. Hunter-gatherer societies don't have the 2 parents family unit. Pretty much everyone is family - even if not by blood - and everyone is in charge of child rearing. It helps that a lot of such societies are polygamous and not everyone knows which child is whose. So individual neuroses will be less likely to carry to the next generation - and fewer exist to begin with because, as Reelya said, culture shapes culture.

You could also have the nicest, bravest, most artistic teacher but in an education system like ours, with classes of 20+ kids, strict rules, schedules, discipline and so on, the system itself will have a much greater impact than the teacher's personality.
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Evans

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2016, 09:53:15 am »

I don't think that having a group of people building tall walls of stone and farming fields do qualify as anything near hunter-gatherer society.

Sure, I would love to see some procedurally generated races that allow polygamy for example, but w are not there yet.

For what we have, teaching in a small class will do.
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Deboche

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2016, 11:14:17 am »

Not saying dwarves are anything like hunter-gatherers, I'm saying it's an important discussion.

Dwarves learning in classes doesn't appeal to me. I think dwarf society is probably more of the kind where dwarves start apprenticeships from an early age, some in the library i guess.

As for what the thread starter said, it raises all those other questions. Are dwarf children looked after in a daycare? Are they let loose, locked up somewhere, forced to work, etc? Or is it all player's choice? And can we get the psychological effects the upbringing is likely to promote? I would love that.
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Dirst

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2016, 12:21:45 pm »

My impression is that dwarven children think they are working from a young age, but the work they do is really superfluous and designed simply to help them learn the trade.  That is, there is no penalty to not having an apprentice in one's workshop handling the small tasks.  Think of the Ladder Holder job in the real world.

It's sort of a coming-of-age ritual when an older child learn which steps are real and which can be skipped.  Might be an explicit lesson in the First Secrets of the Trade, or implicit like figuring out snipe hunts and the Tooth Fairy.
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Evans

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 02:14:52 pm »

Not saying dwarves are anything like hunter-gatherers, I'm saying it's an important discussion.

Dwarves learning in classes doesn't appeal to me. I think dwarf society is probably more of the kind where dwarves start apprenticeships from an early age, some in the library i guess.
Huh. Forget about the idea of high school class with a board and degrees.
Think more of a class, where teacher tells stories or teaches kids by demonstration. As it was done once in the past.

Quote
As for what the thread starter said, it raises all those other questions. Are dwarf children looked after in a daycare? Are they let loose, locked up somewhere, forced to work, etc? Or is it all player's choice? And can we get the psychological effects the upbringing is likely to promote? I would love that.
What about giving a setting to a player?
"Enforce physical regime" where kids would need to run rounds every morning? :) might get them stressed a bit but increase their physical stats.
"Encourage creative thinking" where they would ponder over many strange things? Might give them odd personality traits but increase their mental stats.

And so on and so on.

You see, once we have a location as a base, we can do a lot of great things with it. Hell, we could even sell kids to the goblins.

My impression is that dwarven children think they are working from a young age, but the work they do is really superfluous and designed simply to help them learn the trade.  That is, there is no penalty to not having an apprentice in one's workshop handling the small tasks.  Think of the Ladder Holder job in the real world.

It's sort of a coming-of-age ritual when an older child learn which steps are real and which can be skipped.  Might be an explicit lesson in the First Secrets of the Trade, or implicit like figuring out snipe hunts and the Tooth Fairy.
I would not mind if something like this was implemented. I mean once upon the time kids did something useful, both in DF and in real life.
Now all they do is play all the time until adulthood.

I suspect that in the world, where dragons roam the lands, huge and twisted titans destroy settlements and hordes of undead come to eat you and your family, a kid who is old enough to help on the farm or "hold the ladder" would be expected to do so.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 02:18:35 pm by Evans »
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Reelya

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 08:00:53 pm »

Not saying dwarves are anything like hunter-gatherers, I'm saying it's an important discussion.

Dwarves learning in classes doesn't appeal to me. I think dwarf society is probably more of the kind where dwarves start apprenticeships from an early age, some in the library i guess.
Huh. Forget about the idea of high school class with a board and degrees.
Think more of a class, where teacher tells stories or teaches kids by demonstration. As it was done once in the past.

"As it was done once in the past."

Well, not really. If you look at Athens and Rome, it was more like our conventional schooling, with specific lessons and classes for different topics, and you learned by doing lessons (no romanticized storyteller out the front of class). By the middle ages, pretty much anything which could be called a "classroom" were run by catholic monateries. Education back then was expensive and only a small fraction of society even had access to these classrooms: in other words, parents expected concrete results, not a bunch of stories and demonstrations. I'm very much doubting the existence of a model where there is a formal class back in historical times where the teacher just tells stories and demonstrates stuff to some generalized kids.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 08:17:56 pm by Reelya »
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Evans

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Re: Expanded child behaviour + child-proof doors
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2016, 03:43:30 am »

My apologies. Let me clarify.

I meant teaching a profession to the kids by 'masters'. As in "ladder holders', where kids could observe how things are done by the adults.

Despite me proposing this to be organized by location in-game (for simplicity) I was not referring to antique roman/greek education model, which is possibly most familiar to us.

I was thinking rather about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprenticeship

Some suspicious history website:
http://stores.renstore.com/history-and-biography/childrens-lives-in-the-middle-ages-and-the-renaissance#.V-ovTyGLSUk

Quote
Learning a profession like farming, carpentry, or candle-making was just as important to a medieval child as learning to read or do math. Therefore as soon as they were able, they began to learn to do what their parents did or they went into an apprenticeship to learn a different profession. While some young women studied to become brewers, artists, merchants, dyers, weavers, tailors, or midwives, most girls prepared for a life of running their husband's households. This was not an unimportant job and it took many years to master. Girls learned to clean house, cook, bake, manage servants, weave, sew, garden, raise small animals, and tend the younger children. They learned the arts of shopping; how to haggle, how to spot bad quality and avoid it, what things were worth, how to budget and plan ahead. This took an understanding of math. They also learned to forage for medicinal herbs in the woods, compound medicines, treat all kinds of wounds, and even how to set bones since physicians were rare and very expensive. Boys worked with their male relatives in the fields, mines, stables, and workshops. At first they could only do small jobs like run messages or clean up. But by the time they were 13 they could do nearly any job in their father's workshop.
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And, specifically:
Quote
The typical age for apprenticeship was 14, though some professions in art and music required starting much younger. This was a contractual arrangement that lasted up to 9 years. The apprentice promised to work at a reduced wage and his parents were required to put in a contribution as well. In return, the master promised to teach the apprentice a trade and hold no secrets back. He promised to feed and clothe and chastise (punish) the youth appropriately as a father would. At the end of the apprenticeship, around 20 to 22 years old, the youth would become a journeyman, free to travel and find work in other workshops and thus gain more experience. When he felt he was ready to settle down and open his own workshop, he would petition the guild to become a master. This would be granted by the guild after they examined his work and character and judged it worthy. Those that lived on tenant farms before the 15th century were called serfs and were not allowed to move away and take up a trade. But it was nearly impossible to enforce, so many children ran away to the cities where there was more opportunity.
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I think that is quite reasonable way to handle education in DF.
I mean - it really doesn't make much sense both game-wise and historical-wise that a children of two smiths would reach age of 18 being totally unskilled and having a description 'peasant'  8)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 07:08:18 am by Evans »
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()