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Worldmap: What style would you prefer?

Icons, like ASCII but prettier.
Hand-drawn, like an old-timey sepia map.
Full graphics, like JRPGs with full-on sprites.
Same as the tileset ingame. Forests would use the tree sprite, mountains a rock sprite, etc.
Other. Please post your ideas/examples.

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Author Topic: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline  (Read 742134 times)

jecowa

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2775 on: November 15, 2021, 11:06:44 pm »

I was thinking, the really significant part of the Meph Tileset isn't necessarily the artwork that can't be used, but the underlying code. Could the pack be remade with the same code, but clean art?

I think there's other packs that do that. Meph's tileset is very comprehensive, so it's often used as a template for new ones.

What parts of it?

I don't know what all parts, but I noticed the brazier, gold floor, and background of the wooden stairs were all part of it. The brazier and gold floor tiles, however, are only used with the modded content portion of Meph's tileset, and are unused in vanilla, so those can be safely deleted for users playing vanilla. And the wooden stairs could be adjusted to not use that background. The biggest hurdle in attempting to remove non-free tiles is figuring out which tiles are non-free.
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Meph

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2776 on: November 16, 2021, 02:47:48 am »

I already said it on Reddit, but I wanted to post it here again: Please don't harass vettlingr. I'm not a big fan of his choice of words, but I can't argue with the content. I did just download sprites from google without knowing anything about the authors or licences when I started this, nor did I keep a list of all the credits/sources around. In fact, I haven't ever heard some of the names he quotes, so when he mentions Aurora R or Cheynezz I'm a bit at a loss; I don't even know who to give an apology to. There is a Cheynez on deviantart, who doesn't have any pixelart, and a Cheynezz on pinterest who does make-up(?), but I can't find any pixelart-related Cheynezz.

I talked to Neorice, who is very understanding, partly since he did similar things when he started out doing pixelart.

The code behind it is all me; or by people that wanted their mods in here, like the dogs by brolol.404; or that were requested by players and given with permission by the author, like the Revised mod.

A large amount of sprites are exclusively for modded content. I used Roses building-change script to change sprites on buildings. Technically it changes the building, but hey, it worked. That's most of the sprites that are apparantly only for rpg maker stuff that I put in there in 2016. So if you do a vanilla tileset without the mod content; you automatically get rid of most of that.

The vanilla DF creatures are mostly Obsidian Soul/Dibujor, used with permission, with me having done the zombie variants and all the profession/noble variants.

I'm not sure if it's worth it to salvage it using TWBT right now. It will be much easier to make a tileset like this once the SteamDF version is out. Than again, I've been saying that for years, which is weird.

Quote
this tileset removed for the moment
It's not for the moment as far as I'm concerned. Me from today and me from several years ago wouldn't do things the same way. If I were to recreate this tileset, it would be from scratch. Like I did when I redid MasterworkDF from scratch when DF migrated from v.34.11.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
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ldog

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Re: XXMeph TilesetXX V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - Closed for Copyright infringement
« Reply #2777 on: November 16, 2021, 07:39:21 pm »

Edit: Hope you are happier now.
No, I am not happy. The only thing that would make me happy is if I didn't have to do any of this in the first place.
Good, wallow in misery.

There was a way to handle this with a good outcome, several. You decided to take the destructive route here over a hobby mod release not having perfect attribution. Meph has been straightforward and upfront about it's status and has shown nothing but good faith.

Enjoy the scorn of the community.

Yeah, really. What a douche. This is non-commercial usage.
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Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

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The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

Meph

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2778 on: November 17, 2021, 12:40:24 am »

Don't call him a douche please.
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Rubik

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Re: XXMeph TilesetXX V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - Closed for Copyright infringement
« Reply #2779 on: November 17, 2021, 01:50:10 pm »

Edit: Hope you are happier now.
No, I am not happy. The only thing that would make me happy is if I didn't have to do any of this in the first place.
Good, wallow in misery.

There was a way to handle this with a good outcome, several. You decided to take the destructive route here over a hobby mod release not having perfect attribution. Meph has been straightforward and upfront about it's status and has shown nothing but good faith.

Enjoy the scorn of the community.

Yeah, really. What a douche. This is non-commercial usage.

I mean you are aware meph has a patreon right?
the reaction of some people here is rather funny

You just have to laugh at stuff like ''enjoy the scorn of the community'', for example.
I think you'd all be surprised at how many people are of the same opinion as vettlingr but chose not to comment about it for peace's sake here
I for once barely use my account for posting, but Im a long time lurker, as many people

There definitely is a lot of people that love meph's content, it's expansive and overwhelming, just like the essence of DF when you think about it. but more than one person has been unhappy with how he deals with art made by other people, and...well that he has a patreon based, profiting from that

After all, you could find your way of using a shitton of mods at the same time, painstaikingly, without the use of a launcher, but you can't play modded content without the modded content itself, and that was made, atleast partially for someone else
if you ask for permission and get it? well who cares really, he's in the clear

has he got permission from everyone he has used content from though? and to profit from that on top of all that?
it is serious matters when you ponder about it
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vettlingr

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2780 on: November 18, 2021, 02:03:34 pm »

The following was requested by Novaris

I would like you to know that I have been working on an index that could help reclaim a some of this tileset. I have also been in contact with many of the artists that were uncredited, and have gotten permission to use their tiles if their credits are easily accessible and present. Rebuilding this is by no means an easy task. One suggestion is to scale down, the other is to rebuild from the ground up.

What gets a bit iffy is whether edits of some sprites are allowed, usually edits are quite difficult to credit, especially when they are stitched together with parts from another tileset from another author by another author. It's often necessary to edit some borrowed assets, usually recoulors or strctural textures, to make them "fit" better with the rest. Example

Wooden walls by Hyptosis
Fungal walls made from Wooden walls by hyptosis edited with parts from ? and ? by ?? ?
There are way too many issues like the example above.

Some features may have to go, others replaced. And there are still a lot of tiles I cannot find, mainly from The-spriters-resource. I have no idea how to go about it, unless there are some of you who can recognise sprites from old games.

You should know that I did not act out of my own accord alone. A lot of people have confided in me with similar views with varying degrees of severity. While I believe the truth lies somewhere inbetween, there are a lot of points and issues that causes the kettle to blow over. I won't go over the reasons here, as it would ruin the point of this post.

I have a few suggestions that will help benefit all parties to make sure that this will not happen in the future.

- It's my opinion that Community driven content containing 3rd party assets should not be under the flag of a single author. A simple rename to "DF Community Tileset" would solve a lot, and would even encourage contributors. This also fixes the OC issue, as it will be regarded as a collaboration.

- Try to keep single artists assets to separate sprite sheets, otherwise indexing sprites turns into bureaucracy.

- Easily accessible Credits containing artists name, name of asset, artists website and where the asset is found.

- Updates and promotions should contain links to source material.

- Edits are a can of worms. I have no idea how to go about it, and neither does the broader consensus. I would like to propose a temporary solution where edits are listed in separate edit credits.

There is a plurality of wonderful assets across RPG maker, minecraft communities and other similar gaming communities you sometimes can use freely if everything is attributed right. I can't stress enough how beneficial it is to keep a good register of assets once you get the hang of it. Not only does it do the artist justice, it is also easier to look up new assets one would like to use in the future. Keep in mind that certain artist permissions for RPG maker may be problematic however

I'd like to propose a core with Obsidian Soul, Dibujor and Vordak, extended with Denzi and Dokucraft.
Furthermore, I have heard back from a few authors that will make an exception if credited properly.
Note that this is probably by no means the entirety of artists, but only some of them I was able to identify.
Full list of uncredited Authors (not limited to)
Hyptosis
 - Wooden walls, fungal walls (edit), marble walls (edit)
Website
Anevis/Ceynez
 - Armors and weapons
Old Deviantart
New Deviantart
I'm sure you know Neorice by now
- Birds and food among others.
Website
Clint Bellinger
- Gems
Website
Redshrike as mentioned earller
- Subterrainean creatures mostly
Ivan Voriol
- Hedges
And possibly others

Rpg Maker Artists (see caveat above)
Ayene-chan
 - a lot of the paved tiles
Candy Coded Response
 - Acts from a RPG maker VX ace license.
PandaMaru
 - Sphinx
Celianna etc. -remove
And possibly others

Other games
Walls from Warcraft II
Clay walls from Prison Architect
And possibly others, castlevania??

If someone would like to take up the mantle and untangle this and salvage what can be, this should help get you started.
I would prefer minimal involvement from my own side, although I can provide some advice, pointers and a few tricks, but I intend to take a long break now until I can figure out what to make out of all of this.

I'll throw in a few parting words:
Meph, you are great at raw editing, modding and all that. I am ever thankful and grateful for all your help, advice and tricks you've taught me. But god I wish you could credit properly and consistently! You have lots of things to be proud of that are way more significant than being a tileset 'genius', you've been all over the world, and experienced more than most people would do in a lifetime. That being said, I'm still incredibly confounded to what to make out of all of this.

Meph

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2781 on: November 18, 2021, 06:16:59 pm »

I stick with what I said about it being easier to rebuild from scratch rather than try to remove what's possibly not allowed, be it licencing or not being able to edit. Pretty much everything has to be edited to work with DF, even if it is just transparency or colors. On top of that you have to consider that the tileset raws are interlinked with the launcher code... I have to change the code and compile it in VB every time some major change happens. Starting with a clean vanilla install and no launcher would be much, much simpler.

Hyptosis walls: Those I got from here: https://opengameart.org/content/lots-of-free-2d-tiles-and-sprites-by-hyptosis

Quote
Anevis/Caynez
 - Armors and weapons
Anevis! I did ask and got permission from them for the armor/weapon sets. May 16, 2018, on Deviantart. I first posted a mock-up with them here, and after it worked, approached them: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161047.msg7752332;topicseen#msg7752332 Though I never did send them another message after that first one, since I only made a deviantart account to write them once.

I don't have anything from Prison Architect in there. Warcraft II yeah, which I did mention multiple times, including:
Quote
Credits: The flux walls, just like to upcoming obsidian walls, are from Blizzards Warcraft Il. All rights reserved. I hope they don't mind me using these 23 year old sprites, since I do love Warcraft Il and its style.

Which is a great example for you, about how much I know about licensing or how much people here cared. I just said "I hope this is fine, lets do this!" and those sprites have been in the tileset from 2017 on and no one did bat an eyelash at that fact, even though I explicitily mentioned 7 times in this thread that those are from Warcraft II. Plus a couple of times on Reddit.

Castlevania.... Not sure, I don't think so.If yes, then not intentional. But there is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, a Spiderman/Megaman homage, Legend of Zelda:A link to the past, Lufia II, and of course the Narwhal from https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/484667  All intentionally put in as little easter eggs for people to stumble over because I like the original medium or because people might find it amusing. Sponge-men are literally Spongebob. And the hedgehog-men... Sonic. It's not like I've been subtle about it. Those pop up in webcomics, pop culture and satire all the time.

The rpgmaker things are almost exclusively for modded content like decorations. It's easy to remove them without affecting the rest of the tileset.

Quote
I'll throw in a few parting words:
Meph, you are great at raw editing, modding and all that. I am ever thankful and grateful for all your help, advice and tricks you've taught me. But god I wish you could credit properly and consistently! You have lots of things to be proud of that are way more significant than being a tileset 'genius', you've been all over the world, and experienced more than most people would do in a lifetime. That being said, I'm still incredibly confounded to what to make out of all of this.
... Thanks... I guess? I mean, thank you, it's clear that you are much calmer now and not as super confrontational as a few days ago. I just never took licencing seriously, hence why nothing I created for DF over the roughly 2000h of work and 9 years of time, is behind a paywall; and why all my mods are free to be used and taken apart by anyone. I couldn't fathom why it would be bad to take stuff from Google or opengameart. After all, they were images that anyone can access and download; and this is a mod that anyone can access and download. At the beginning I didn't think any further than that.

If it helps you understand how I came to that stupid idea of including things without licence (or rather to not even spend a thought about checking a licence in the first place): I once wrote a game developer directly. Real company with a very successful game, because I wanted to make a tileset using their art assets. They wrote me a very nice email back, saying that yes, I can use the assets, under one condition. And here is the kicker: That condition was to NOT give credit. They literally told me that they are fine with me using the art; but they can't condone that officially, so I should just use it, don't tell anyone I got the permission, and ignore everyone who told me that I'll get sued, because only the developers could sue me and they told me that they wouldn't. Essentially they said "as a company we can't allow that, but as private people we think it's cool, go for it".

I never ended up making that specific tileset because I was too busy, but... yeah. I know three game devs: Tarn/Bay12, a free game with a modding community that borrows from each other all the time; that company described above; and Kitfox, who hired me to make a tileset even after I told them that I'm not a pixel artist and that it's just a hobby for me, with them unable to use my tileset since it's based on sprites by someone else.

That, plus the near 100k downloads/5years without anyone caring about the sprites used. Like I said in a post earlier, it never occured to me that it's a big deal, I thought that it technically exists but is not enforced or cared about much, like jaywalking. This is not intended as an excuse, just an explanation that might help you understand my point of view.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 06:19:53 pm by Meph »
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Putnam

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2782 on: November 21, 2021, 03:34:41 am »

Yeaaaahh, if I had known years ago I probably would've warned you in private, even during the peak of my sour grapes years. I've always taken licensing very seriously, to the point where I basically straight-up left a fanmusic group because they were too cavelier about proper copyleft behavior.

I'd kinda describe it as sad but not unexpected, but it's not really the same nature as the masterwork-related drama, because Dwarf Fortress raws are far less clear in their copyright status than art. As best I can tell, since the source is the work, it's kinda enforced open source, but the raw files include a license now (which is basically an uber-basic "i waive all rights") for a reason, and I license all my own raws similarly for the same reason, which is that ambiguity is very bad. But first you have to knowthat, I guess.

Cruxador

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2783 on: November 22, 2021, 07:12:49 pm »

That, plus the near 100k downloads/5years without anyone caring about the sprites used. Like I said in a post earlier, it never occured to me that it's a big deal, I thought that it technically exists but is not enforced or cared about much, like jaywalking. This is not intended as an excuse, just an explanation that might help you understand my point of view.
Five years ago, that viewpoint was more true than it is today, and five years prior it was more true still. The world changes as we get older, and the internet is changing too.

That said, I definitely encountered people (talking in more relaxed settings than bay12forums) who felt a bit sour at the level of respect you showed to other people's work even several years ago.
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stroppycarpet

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2784 on: November 23, 2021, 05:39:24 am »

That because my tileset does not use textures with a non-redistribution license behind a 25$ paywall. such as the ones meph must have procured from Aurora R. Its proof he did swipe sprites outside of any creative commons too
Full license:
"Can only be used in RPG Maker VX and RPG Maker VX Ace, and in NO other game engine. Can not be redistributed or sold as-is. Can be edited however you want. Edits cannot be redistributed. Only for non-commercial usage. For commercial usage, visit the products tab to buy a commercial license."
This author is not credited at all.


Who is Aurora R? Do they have a link to a shop? What sprite of theirs was copied? Out of all the accusations this is the most pressing one. I would say that at this point you have an obligation to the community to back up this claim. Regardless of whether the tileset was taken down.
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Ergzay

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2785 on: November 23, 2021, 01:19:15 pm »

Hey Meph, it'd be great if you defended yourself a bit more, there's a lot of people on other sites (Reddit) that are lying about a lot of things and claiming you explicitly stole artwork or other horrible things when you did in fact not do any of that.
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ANickel

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2786 on: November 23, 2021, 01:24:29 pm »

These are in _Meph_decorations.png: https://pixanna.nl/materials/celiannas-parallax-tiles/interior-tiles/ I think this is what he was referring to when he mentioned the RPGmaker tiles. I really doubt Meph paid the $30 just to use those sprites that are present there. https://i.imgur.com/agYxqPO.png The terms of use are right up at the top in clear font:

"Can only be used in RPG Maker VX and RPG Maker VX Ace, and in NO other game engine. Can not be redistributed or sold as-is. Can be edited however you want. Edits cannot be redistributed. Only for non-commercial usage. For commercial usage, visit the products tab to buy a commercial license."
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gchristopher

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2787 on: November 24, 2021, 02:35:51 am »

Huh.

- Was upfront and admitted a mistake, even belatedly
- Respectful and considerate communication
- Taking steps to correct the issue, even if it's huge effort, instead of vitriol or rage quitting

Umm, this is still the internet, right? I'm confused, because this isn't how the internet is supposed to go...

My reaction was to join Meph's patreon just now.
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Meph

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2788 on: November 24, 2021, 03:42:28 am »

These are in _Meph_decorations.png: https://pixanna.nl/materials/celiannas-parallax-tiles/interior-tiles/ I think this is what he was referring to when he mentioned the RPGmaker tiles. I really doubt Meph paid the $30 just to use those sprites that are present there. https://i.imgur.com/agYxqPO.png The terms of use are right up at the top in clear font:

"Can only be used in RPG Maker VX and RPG Maker VX Ace, and in NO other game engine. Can not be redistributed or sold as-is. Can be edited however you want. Edits cannot be redistributed. Only for non-commercial usage. For commercial usage, visit the products tab to buy a commercial license."
Right... the thing is, I'd have to visit her website to read all that. Like I said multiple times, I made the mistake of starting out by just taking pictures from google image search, right-click, save. Which is why I didn't knew any of the licencing or even some of the names Vettlingr posted earlier. Over the time I noticed licencing and started posting credits and sources. The issues arise because I didnt retroactively remove the old stuff from 2016/17 after I learned that.

Ergzay: It's the internet. I can't and won't argue with the internet, nothing good comes of it. Regardless of how well I'd defend myself, I was in the wrong, and it's reasonable to take the tileset down. The kitfox thing I won't discuss in public because they requested that, but obviously the situation sucks for everyone involved.

Edit: I'm not sure if I should leave this thread open... the tileset is gone. Do you guys want to keep discussing things here?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 05:02:23 am by Meph »
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Novaris

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Re: ☼Meph Tileset☼ V5.5 (32x32) - 47.05 - offline
« Reply #2789 on: November 24, 2021, 04:55:04 am »

I would think all is said about this for the moment. If we ever find a way to re-share the tileset you made it clear its not going to be "yours" any longer and would anyway require a new thread.
I vote to close it.
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