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Author Topic: Race  (Read 7106 times)

Deboche

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Re: Race
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2016, 12:40:32 am »

Quote
Why would you group these 4 things together?
"adds little enjoyable gameplay" to "gross" to "gives a weird image about a game that mainly relies on donations to survive"
There are so many things like that already in the game though.

Quote
That's beside the point.
That's the whole point. And you dodged it. If you could actually see the creature's skin tones graphically, wouldn't it make sense to include different skin tones at least?

I've heard of race realists but accidentally stumbled upon some information about them yesterday and was pretty grossed out. But we shouldn't let the bigotry of a minority of people affect how we treat or depict "races" - or ethnicities or whatever you want to call them - or pretend they don't exist. Isn't that a counterproductive attitude in itself?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 06:52:13 am by Deboche »
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Rubik

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Re: Race
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2016, 09:24:08 am »

to be honest, I myself don't think Toady would add excrements/rape/sexism into the game, but complaining about it because it's ''controversial'' Is not really true, unless it went really over the top with it(being blatantly offensive and not really interesting)
This is a game where you can pick the head of a child, and bash his mother to death with it, or the game where grabbing and severing guts is a mechanic for the sole purpose of 'its grossfun'. In those two cases, Toady has talked about expanding them (strangling with guts; the several psychology updates would make the mother'suffer' more)
If it adds more complexity/interesting and well thought enough mechanics (manure and cathartic war crimes, instead of shit and rape) , Then it might not be such a bad idea to include them, as the game itself has a big pilar on horrifying and spoopy themes, and aims to be like that in general
But yeah, Talking about shit in a thread about races is not ok, so sorry for derail the thread
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rhavviepoodle

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Re: Race
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2016, 04:35:11 pm »

to be honest, I myself don't think Toady would add excrements/rape/sexism into the game

This is neither here nor there, but aren't night trolls rapists in some capacity? I mean, they transform someone against their will and after the transformation said person gives consent--that's a pretty slippery slope. In some cases I've even seen night trolls who've married half-relations, which one could argue is incest.

While contemporary conceptions of race don't really have much place in a fantasy setting, some magical races do develop multiple strains: high elf, wood elf, and drow, or even dwarf and duergar. Even DF does this--if satyrs and gnomes (plus their evil counterparts) are any indication, any changes significant enough to warrant notice are simply written into a separate monster. And although I wouldn't object to the inclusion of drow and duergar, humans (being mundane) might be harder to justify and thus be the odd ones out.

An intolerant dwarf might notice that a visiting dwarven bard has a different skin color and different eyes than he's used to, but he probably is glad it's a dwarf rather than something icky, like an elf or goblin. If dwarves were the only civilized race in power (like humans on earth), then they might be able to justify differentiating based on looks. Otherwise there's enough trying to kill them that it's worth it to see the similarities in question rather than the differences.
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Race
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2016, 02:55:04 pm »

When I say there are no races in reality, I'm talking genetics. Picking a few visible markers of genetic difference and calling them "races" is stupid and unscientific. Pick any so-called "race" and actually look at the genetics. There will be a lot of variation within that arbitrary group you picked, especially if you picked a crazy-broad category like "negroid" or "caucasoid" or "mongoloid." In fact, there will be just as much variation in-group as there is between your arbitrary groups. Which is why I say the groups are arbitrary: pick a different set of perfectly valid genetic differences, and you will come up with a whole different set of so-called "races."

So why pick things like skin tone, epicanthic fold or hair as your criteria for assigning humans to races? Why not something important like ability to digest lactose? It is only because the first things are easily visible, and therefore used by unsophisticated, parochial, ignorant humans to say "Shun the outsider! He's not like us!" That is the entire purpose of classifying humans into races, there is no other purpose.
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Calidovi

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Re: Race
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2016, 09:16:40 am »

oh jesus this thread
  • There's been so much discussion over sewer systems that, if Toady didn't consider it then, he's probably not going to consider it now.
  • Sexism and homophobia have little role in this game because this is a fantasy world simulator, not "Earth Maker 900". Also, splitting things up between castes/procedurally generated sexuality seems taxing.
  • As for rape, it don't see how it would impact the world other than having a legends entry for it. Children might say something about their being the product of it, and there might be calls for vengeance from the victim or their spouse, but that's all that comes to mind.
    If you think that Dwarf Fortress is the unholy medium in which you, questionable member of society, should be able to rape people, mod it in. But don't expect any support for it from Toady.
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Dyret

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Re: Race
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2016, 09:49:40 am »

Shit-stirring, aspergers and moral posturing aside, isn't this already in? Could have sworn people from warmer areas tend to be on the browner side. Could be RNG, though. In any event some kind of exoticims modifier might be in order, so Dwarves can get super-excited or terrified after meeting people or critters from faraway lands, depending on who they are. Dividing by race doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense, though.
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Rubik

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Re: Race
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2016, 12:37:02 pm »

oh jesus this thread
  • There's been so much discussion over sewer systems that, if Toady didn't consider it then, he's probably not going to consider it now.
  • Sexism and homophobia have little role in this game because this is a fantasy world simulator, not "Earth Maker 900". Also, splitting things up between castes/procedurally generated sexuality seems taxing.
  • As for rape, it don't see how it would impact the world other than having a legends entry for it. Children might say something about their being the product of it, and there might be calls for vengeance from the victim or their spouse, but that's all that comes to mind.
    If you think that Dwarf Fortress is the unholy medium in which you, questionable member of society, should be able to rape people, mod it in. But don't expect any support for it from Toady.

There is no need to be rude, you know? Just because I consider adding or not certain content, Im not a 'questionable member of society', Im just discussing something
You are right when you say the game it's a simulator, but Toady has stated many times that the game is a fantasy Stories simulator, not just a fantasy simulator.
This may seem like a banal difference, but its not. For there is a difference between a game simply centered around a fantastical theme, and a game that aims to simulate whole contexts (Sociology, world creation, mythology and other mechanics) so stories emerge.
Now stories are very different from each-other in real life. You got the fairy tales, the 'kinda' serious stories with more deepnes to them, etc.
And you got stories that, be it good or bad, touch certain themes, or are plain horrific to tell and/or to experience
The thing that atracted me to the game was the vast differences and originality from each world you play. Not only for geographical differences, but for history and lore, making you able to enjoy completely different game plays each time you play.
The world seems to be going in a direction where more content and control over it will be added, which will allow you to make more precise experiences to those that want them. The main example are the fantasy/hostility sliders
The thing I want to say, is that Im sure a maxed hostility world should be completely horrifying, and devoid of anything that is good or gives hope, something Toady has stated with the famous ''Ghosts snatching worm-like people from a world that is a digestive track to be drown in a lake of bile''
In worlds like that, certain behaviours or mechanics would make more sense than in a normal playthrough. Even if its only value is for ambience, or giving the player two set-afar extremes to play in
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Calidovi

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Re: Race
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2016, 12:45:25 pm »

not trying to be rude, sorry if i came across that way

But yeah, what you said makes far more sense in the context of the 'terror and joy' sliders or whatever they're called.
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rhavviepoodle

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Re: Race
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2016, 12:49:14 pm »

Welp, on the topic of fantasy stories, have y'all read up on original versions of faerie tales? They were in fact pretty dark, definitely not the watered-down stuff Disney presents for children to enjoy. Two of the things I currently adore about Dwarf Fortress is how dark and how immersive it is, so I can't say I'd complain if it were made even more so. But I think we've gotten a bit off topic here. I do agree that the contemporary conception of race isn't very substantial in a fantasy setting and wouldn't add much to the game.
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Rubik

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Re: Race
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2016, 04:03:46 pm »

not trying to be rude, sorry if i came across that way

But yeah, what you said makes far more sense in the context of the 'terror and joy' sliders or whatever they're called.

Im really glad we could understand each other

Welp, on the topic of fantasy stories, have y'all read up on original versions of faerie tales? They were in fact pretty dark, definitely not the watered-down stuff Disney presents for children to enjoy. Two of the things I currently adore about Dwarf Fortress is how dark and how immersive it is, so I can't say I'd complain if it were made even more so. But I think we've gotten a bit off topic here. I do agree that the contemporary conception of race isn't very substantial in a fantasy setting and wouldn't add much to the game.

Yeah, It's known that a lot of modern fairy tales are based on completly horrific centuries old stories.
A lot of topics from those stories actually open up a lot of interesting things to the game. like natural inner evil, long-lasting intergenerational curses, and so on. Really interesting stuff
That's probably why Toady and Threetoe write stories to help them make the game
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Nopenope

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Re: Race
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2016, 04:04:47 pm »


There is no need to be rude, you know? Just because I consider adding or not certain content, Im not a 'questionable member of society', Im just discussing something
You are right when you say the game it's a simulator, but Toady has stated many times that the game is a fantasy Stories simulator, not just a fantasy simulator.
This may seem like a banal difference, but its not. For there is a difference between a game simply centered around a fantastical theme, and a game that aims to simulate whole contexts (Sociology, world creation, mythology and other mechanics) so stories emerge.
Now stories are very different from each-other in real life. You got the fairy tales, the 'kinda' serious stories with more deepnes to them, etc.
And you got stories that, be it good or bad, touch certain themes, or are plain horrific to tell and/or to experience
The thing that atracted me to the game was the vast differences and originality from each world you play. Not only for geographical differences, but for history and lore, making you able to enjoy completely different game plays each time you play.
The world seems to be going in a direction where more content and control over it will be added, which will allow you to make more precise experiences to those that want them. The main example are the fantasy/hostility sliders
The thing I want to say, is that Im sure a maxed hostility world should be completely horrifying, and devoid of anything that is good or gives hope, something Toady has stated with the famous ''Ghosts snatching worm-like people from a world that is a digestive track to be drown in a lake of bile''
In worlds like that, certain behaviours or mechanics would make more sense than in a normal playthrough. Even if its only value is for ambience, or giving the player two set-afar extremes to play in

Posts like these keep missing the point. No matter how often you justify your wish to include rape into the game, no matter how well-founded your arguments are, it's not going to happen. At some point you have to put yourself in Toady's shoes and ask yourself: "Hmm, should I add rape stories to my fantasy simulator donation-driven game with an already niche community that mainly relies on word of mouth and conference invitations for publicity, especially in an era where gamer demographics tend to expand beyond 20-something white males and a presidential candidate has been involved in sexual misconduct allegations? There's no possible way it could go wrong nor get any kind of public backlash, ever." I mean, no matter what you think about the current events, there are these things called 'context' and 'public image' that are oh-so-easy to ignore when one's next lunch and dinner don't rely on the good will of a far-reaching number of consumers who could pull out their support at any time for no reason. And this isn't even taking into account the possibility that the Adams brothers themselves are not that keen on adding explicit elements to the game, a conclusion that can be easily inferred from the very abstract way reproduction or gelding are handled, the lack of any kind of naughty bits in the raws with no plans to expand on them and the pretty conservative moderation history and guidelines on the forums (goblin fortress, obok anyone?). So even assuming you could afford supporting the entirety of bay12 on your own for the sole purpose of adding rape to the game, chances are they would still be reluctant to do so.

Now you may be protesting, "but this is a game where you can gouge people's eyes out and beat them to death with their baby's left arm, why is sexual violence that big of a no-no"? And this is a very good point that doesn't have answers satisfying everyone. The most important two I can think of are:
-The Adams brothers are American, most of the bay12 community is American and the vocal 'tip' of the iceberg that is the gaming and/or indie community at large is by far represented by Americans first. This means any kind of talk regarding the game's public image and its reception among the community has to be viewed through the lenses of American standards. And America has a huge and lingering problem with sexuality in general for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of a suggestion forum, but let's just say puritanism has yet to be uprooted from the American mentality. Now I'm not saying that Toady doesn't want rape because he and his community are stuck-up or anything, but let's just say the aforementioned context would be much easier to handle if the game and its community were predominantly European. Note that I said easier, not easy.
-Rape is a real thing in the real world that happens to real people. Many people, actually. Yes, the things described in a typical combat log such as getting one's nose bitten off or getting one's brain torn apart because of a pile of spinning vomit jamming one's skull can theoretically happen (though I have some doubts about the vomit), but the sheer, absurd gruesomeness of it makes the violence seem unreal. It's very much akin to B horror movies eliciting laughter instead of fear. Generally speaking, all the things you do in the game are realistic enough, but they don't relate to the real world. One can get immersed in the game when dwarves pour magma on goblin corpses with neat descriptions about the rotten bones burning off, because there's this implicit understanding that while such things could happen, they don't happen in real life. They're part of a projected collective culture mingling pop fantasy, history and religious myths anyone can get acquainted with at little mental cost. Rape, on the other hand, is something a non-negligible amount of people have experienced. It is not part of the said collective culture (though in can creep up in some pop mediums for added shock value), it has no place in a cool imaginary world to immerse oneself in, and generally speaking it is an experience that these people would rather not get reminded of. Also, although it is a traumatic experience, many people survive it, which explains why they usually voice their concerns when given the occasion, as opposed to people who have been actually beaten to death by their left foot, fourth toe.

There are a couple other reasons that are in my opinion less solid but still worth mentioning, such as the expansion of the gamer demographics since the 2010's and the already bad image projected by the, say, 'old guard' gamers, especially in light of the controversies sparked over these last few years, and the implementation of a hardcoded mechanic with definitely sexist overtones (into a niche game viewed as the epitome of 'nerdiness' by many) wouldn't probably arrange things much with the reputation of said old guard, but that's a weak argument, I have to admit.

The closest the game will ever get to explicit elements is the ability to mod them in. You can already that with body parts, of course, and presumably some of the worldgen stories will get more flexibility as well. At least you can request it.

Again, this is just my personal conclusion based on what I've lurked over and read from the Adams brothers. I could be totally wrong and rape stories could be included in the next release, of course. I just explained why I think they won't.
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Rubik

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Re: Race
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2016, 04:31:09 pm »

To be quite honest, everything you said is true. Or at least your post has a higher percentage of truthness than most posts
I disagree on the decision to deliberatedly portray rape as something gruesome and explicit that parts of your post imply, as I believe, in the highly hipothetic case that Toady decided to add it, that he would do it in a extremely elegant and discrete way, because he has tact, without hiding anything to the player
Having that in mind, most of your points still stand right and concise.
Reading the part you talk about americans and the demographic that plays the game, You personally said that the player base is basically composed( a little exageration from my part) of +20 year old american white males, which we can assume is fairly true.
This group is not explicitely known for being victims of rape
Now, before anybody say anything, yes guys are raped, yes white guys are raped. But it's not a group that stands out for it, that I think we can agree. This doesn't negate the gravity of rape in any way. Just the influence and receptivity this things would have in the playerbase.
I am not ignoring the cultural dislike of the people from your country that dont play the game, and still, they take lenghts of time to complain about content they'll never see. But frankly, and I dont mean any offense, as you recognize it partly, People complaining about stuff is a constant in your country, so that's that.
All in all, I also think rape won't probably be included in the game at all, but I like to explore the idea of various mechanics
Can I ask you if you would actually like it to be added? Out of pure curiosity, of course
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Deboche

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Re: Race
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2016, 05:09:59 am »

No matter how often you justify your wish to include rape into the game
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Race
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2016, 03:22:36 pm »

Rape included, or even the main theme, in literature is considered art (if done well, of course). Same with TV and movies. In media with less cultural acclaim, it gets harder and harder to do it right without incurring someone's wrath, and as the project gets smaller, it becomes harder and harder to defend yourself from groups of people trying to make a point about rape. Which is a terrible thing that actually happens far too frequently in real life.

Consider Fallout 3. Big game, big publisher, included what appeared to be evidence of violent rape and torture in the form of corpses chained spread eagle on mattresses in raider camps. It was never a plot point, or even mentioned, it was just something you saw in the game. There was a bit of backlash, but nothing a publisher of that size couldn't handle, and fans modded in "rape remover" mods that got rid of the evidence.

Now consider Penny Arcade, a popular web comic about gaming. Much smaller publisher, and a smaller audience (but still bigger than Bay 12 and the DF audience.) They made a joke tangentially related to rape. A peasant asks the player for help, as he and his family are "being raped to sleep by the Dickwolves every night." The hero declines to help as he has already helped the necessary number of peasants to complete the current quest.  Funny joke, right? It's not about rape, rape was just the worst thing Tycho and Gabe could imagine, so they used it. It could have been "tortured to sleep by the Murder Bunnies" and it would have been the same joke. The mechanics of questing make even heroes into anti-social jerks.

This comic turned into an absolute foaming feces storm of unbelievably epic proportions. The fallout remains to this day. If I tell certain people that I enjoy reading Penny Arcade, I get read the riot act for patronizing a sexist "pro rape culture" comic. Admittedly, part of the problem was Gabe and Tycho's initial reaction, which was unnecessarily confrontational and dismissive. They made another comic belittling the people complaining, and made T-shirts of it.

Eventually, they were forced to back down and apologize. The issue was tainting their brand, and harming the good work they were doing raising money to provide toys and games for children's hospitals. It a battle not worth fighting.

Including rape as a player option wouldn't be anything like those two examples. It would be a justified death sentence for the game, and a very black mark against anyone who even admitted to playing it. Suddenly it would be in the same category as "Custer's Revenge" i.e. deviant, sexist junk. Including rape as a potential thing that might happen in the game, mentioned as (for example) one of the terrible things that enemies did might cause such a backlash. It's not worth the risk, and it adds nothing of artistic merit to the game.

The big difference between playing a necromancer character who kills hundreds, and a rapist, is that necromancers aren't real. Even serial killers are incredibly uncommon. You aren't likely to run into any families of the victims of serial killers in your day to day life.

You have almost certainly met dozens of women in your life who were raped, unless you are a hermit recluse. They probably didn't mention it to you, but you have met them. You probably have such a woman in your family. The statistics of rape are horrifying. The only way it will ever be safe to portray rape as a player action in a game is if rape becomes a thing of the past, something that only happened in the bad old days. So hey, let's work on making that a reality.
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Rubik

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Re: Race
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2016, 04:04:49 pm »

I can't speak for Toady, that's for sure. But reading about him , you get the idea that the reason he is doing DF the way he's doing it (rejecting big companies, living off donations) is because the thing he values more is indepence to do the game the way he wants, and at the pace he feels like (he still works 150% of what most people work though).
Being unable to do art in any form because of presure from people that are over-sensitiviticed is a really sad thing, even worse than some types of censure.
I am not a citizen of the USA, so nor can I speak with knowledge, nor I can speak as I was from there, but reading and experimenting your culture, you get the idea that you are really prone to critic stuff, in some cases, because it literally offends your feelings
Before anyone posts a strawman picture, I must say that I dont say that to dismish any point you made, you actually recognized something like that in a previous post, regarding sexuality
The thing I mean, is that Toady can do whatever he wants, because nor I, nor a lot of people, would stop donating to the Toad if the game starts being marked as ''inapriopiate'' by a group of people that Toady doesn't seem to particularly depend from
What Toady seems to value is the player's feedback, and if anything makes sense, is that, As this isn't a game with any important impact on your culture, so anyone who thinks that has the right to regulate what happens in it, doesn't really care what happens in an ''underground'' game like this one
We have derailed this tread more than enough, so I await your answer GhostDwemer, but Im afraid I won't answer it here.
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