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[Bumber]

Stop raping this thread, people.

The thing I mean, is that Toady can do whatever he wants, because nor I, nor a lot of people, would stop donating to the Toad if the game starts being marked as ''inapriopiate'' by a group of people that Toady doesn't seem to particularly depend from
What Toady seems to value is the player's feedback, and if anything makes sense, is that, As this isn't a game with any important impact on your culture, so anyone who thinks that has the right to regulate what happens in it, doesn't really care what happens in an ''underground'' game like this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_in_the_Museum_of_Modern_Art#List

[Nopenope]

snip

You seem to assume Toady is autistic, or egoistical, or oblivious of the world around him. Just because he's independent from big gaming companies or teams doesn't mean he doesn't have to rely on his community, far from it. I don't just mean bay12, I actually mean the community of all people who could potentially play his game, which includes the indie community (where he's acquired quite a bit of notoriety as the numerous conventions he's been invited to can testify) and the gaming community in general. A community isn't a fixed set of people: some quit playing after a while, some get introduced and start contributing right away. As older players eventually move on and leave, newer players have to join so the community doesn't just die like it happened to far too many forums with the advent of social media and aggregating websites like Reddit or 4chan. Because the game doesn't advertise itself, these newer players have to be pulled from this "outer community", so to speak, or through word-of-mouth. So yeah, keeping the game attractive and the bay12 community welcoming is crucial to the game if the bay12 team is to keep relying on donations for financial support. That doesn't mean the game has to pander to noobs or anything, far from it! Complex and intricate games have their target audience, and Toady has forged enough of a name for himself that people are willing to support him so he can keep perfecting his masterpiece of game design.

But rape (and the aforementioned things in the thread, such as dividing humans into races) doesn't add anything to the game design. Gruesome combat logs are an emerging consequence of having a detailed body anatomy and step-by-step, formal combat actions. Rape on the other hand would have to stem from a conscious decision from the developer, saying: "I want characters to be raped in this game". Just like "I want homophobia to be a thing in this game" or "I want distinct biological human races to exist in this game". I don't actually think such a move would upset that many people, but there's a substantial risk that it could tick off enough gaming journalists or voices in social media that it'd get some bad publicity, and soon enough the game would be known as "that weird nerd rape fantasy simulator thing", regardless of how minor the change would be. (Let it be known for the record that although I'd find it weird, I wouldn't mind much the existence of such things in the game as long as they're opt-out modwise, but then I haven't been a victim of rape or homophobia so I'm not one to judge.) Worse, if the bad publicity spirals out of control because of some backlash from this community (which is extremely likely as people here are understandably fond of their toad, but also -and less understandably- likely to frequent chans or reddit, and thus have a strong opinion of the so-called 'SJWs' or 'PC crowd'), this will forever taint the game and its players, regardless of the game's merit and regardless of how welcoming the forums have been in the past. Incidentally, this policy of being ever welcoming to outsiders may explain the zero tolerance Toady has for any explicit material or rudeness on his forum. Put it another way, when girls at parties ask you what games you play, you don't want to be replying "yeah it's that game with racist shitting dwarves, also you can craft dildos menacing with spikes and rape elf kids". Or have them think that when they google the game's name.

So yeah, being welcoming to others is paramount to the long term life of the game. It's not about hurting some feelings, it's about turning off swathes of people that could otherwise join the community and support the game. Someone who doesn't feel comfortable playing a sim game with rape doesn't have any hurt feeling, it's just that they'd rather be doing something else in their spare time that doesn't involve rape stories. And to address your argument about how the, let's say, "hardcore fans" would keep the game alive on their own, I have my doubts. Even hardcore fans eventually quit after a while, or can't afford donating forever. Remember a community's never static, and when these dedicated members eventually leave for various reasons, who is going to replace them? Even Trump is starting to realize that alienating entire demographics by capitalizing solely on "angry white males and their wives" can only take you so far. I'm not saying that a hardcore DF fan is a Trump supporter, let's not push the analogy too far. But at the end of the day it's all about demographics, and if your livelihood relies on the support of good-willed people who don't owe you anything, it's always a bad idea to cut onself off a demographic. It doesn't matter whether the reasons for doing so are justified or if said alienation wasn't intentional.

And at last, I don't think Toady has given any hints that he was being censored in his art expression in any way by 'PC' or whatever. Just like I said before, you have to consider the possibility that maybe, even if he was being given millions to do so, he isn't that keen on rape stories or anything like that, just like a significant chunk of the population.

[Rubik]

snip

You seem to assume Toady is autistic, or egoistical, or oblivious of the world around him. Just because he's independent from big gaming companies or teams doesn't mean he doesn't have to rely on his community, far from it. I don't just mean bay12, I actually mean the community of all people who could potentially play his game, which includes the indie community (where he's acquired quite a bit of notoriety as the numerous conventions he's been invited to can testify) and the gaming community in general. A community isn't a fixed set of people: some quit playing after a while, some get introduced and start contributing right away. As older players eventually move on and leave, newer players have to join so the community doesn't just die like it happened to far too many forums with the advent of social media and aggregating websites like Reddit or 4chan. Because the game doesn't advertise itself, these newer players have to be pulled from this "outer community", so to speak, or through word-of-mouth. So yeah, keeping the game attractive and the bay12 community welcoming is crucial to the game if the bay12 team is to keep relying on donations for financial support. That doesn't mean the game has to pander to noobs or anything, far from it! Complex and intricate games have their target audience, and Toady has forged enough of a name for himself that people are willing to support him so he can keep perfecting his masterpiece of game design.

But rape (and the aforementioned things in the thread, such as dividing humans into races) doesn't add anything to the game design. Gruesome combat logs are an emerging consequence of having a detailed body anatomy and step-by-step, formal combat actions. Rape on the other hand would have to stem from a conscious decision from the developer, saying: "I want characters to be raped in this game". Just like "I want homophobia to be a thing in this game" or "I want distinct biological human races to exist in this game". I don't actually think such a move would upset that many people, but there's a substantial risk that it could tick off enough gaming journalists or voices in social media that it'd get some bad publicity, and soon enough the game would be known as "that weird nerd rape fantasy simulator thing", regardless of how minor the change would be. (Let it be known for the record that although I'd find it weird, I wouldn't mind much the existence of such things in the game as long as they're opt-out modwise, but then I haven't been a victim of rape or homophobia so I'm not one to judge.) Worse, if the bad publicity spirals out of control because of some backlash from this community (which is extremely likely as people here are understandably fond of their toad, but also -and less understandably- likely to frequent chans or reddit, and thus have a strong opinion of the so-called 'SJWs' or 'PC crowd'), this will forever taint the game and its players, regardless of the game's merit and regardless of how welcoming the forums have been in the past. Incidentally, this policy of being ever welcoming to outsiders may explain the zero tolerance Toady has for any explicit material or rudeness on his forum. Put it another way, when girls at parties ask you what games you play, you don't want to be replying "yeah it's that game with racist shitting dwarves, also you can craft dildos menacing with spikes and rape elf kids". Or have them think that when they google the game's name.

So yeah, being welcoming to others is paramount to the long term life of the game. It's not about hurting some feelings, it's about turning off swathes of people that could otherwise join the community and support the game. Someone who doesn't feel comfortable playing a sim game with rape doesn't have any hurt feeling, it's just that they'd rather be doing something else in their spare time that doesn't involve rape stories. And to address your argument about how the, let's say, "hardcore fans" would keep the game alive on their own, I have my doubts. Even hardcore fans eventually quit after a while, or can't afford donating forever. Remember a community's never static, and when these dedicated members eventually leave for various reasons, who is going to replace them? Even Trump is starting to realize that alienating entire demographics by capitalizing solely on "angry white males and their wives" can only take you so far. I'm not saying that a hardcore DF fan is a Trump supporter, let's not push the analogy too far. But at the end of the day it's all about demographics, and if your livelihood relies on the support of good-willed people who don't owe you anything, it's always a bad idea to cut onself off a demographic. It doesn't matter whether the reasons for doing so are justified or if said alienation wasn't intentional.

And at last, I don't think Toady has given any hints that he was being censored in his art expression in any way by 'PC' or whatever. Just like I said before, you have to consider the possibility that maybe, even if he was being given millions to do so, he isn't that keen on rape stories or anything like that, just like a significant chunk of the population.

I might have exagerated the donation part, Groups have people entering and coming out of it all the time that's spot on. The same with the publicity and the overall image of the game
And heck, Im the first one to say adding that to the game is easily one of, if not the least important thing to think about, when there are many many more fascinating and deep mechanics and content to explore, especially, and that's the important thing, to Toady
I apreciate that you put that effort in answering my post. I thought diffent from this forums, but the people here seems a lot more thoughtful and mature that I had been told, which is really nice
I don't know what are 'PC' '4chan', and I have only went to reddit once, I dont like most forums

[Myth]

What the f ...

This was not an topic about racial differences in the game? Because I frankly think it would be a great addition. It would be great if there were variations within the same species, like dark elf, duergar, differents humans, differents orcs, an this type typical elements of the fantasy genre.

I do not think it's something racist, not necessarily.

Please don't attack me.

[FantasticDorf]

What the f ...

This was not an topic about racial differences in the game? Because I frankly think it would be a great addition. It would be great if there were variations within the same species, like dark elf, duergar, differents humans, differents orcs, an this type typical elements of the fantasy genre.

I do not think it's something racist, not necessarily.

Please don't attack me.

It got constrewed with backward topics, that while important for discussion have been spoken about and dismissed already largely and this appears to be a opportunity to strawman revive & attack the strawmen (making a arguement out of something else, and using that other arguement to attack another)

Just uh, gleam through it with a fine comb is the best advice i have

[Deboche]

What the f ...

This was not an topic about racial differences in the game? Because I frankly think it would be a great addition. It would be great if there were variations within the same species, like dark elf, duergar, differents humans, differents orcs, an this type typical elements of the fantasy genre.

I do not think it's something racist, not necessarily.

Please don't attack me.

That's one way to go about it and it's how the Elder Scrolls does it, different types of humans that look different and have different abilities. But apparently you can't suggest that without also condoning rape.

[GhostDwemer]

What the f ...

This was not an topic about racial differences in the game? Because I frankly think it would be a great addition. It would be great if there were variations within the same species, like dark elf, duergar, differents humans, differents orcs, an this type typical elements of the fantasy genre.

I do not think it's something racist, not necessarily.

Please don't attack me.

That's one way to go about it and it's how the Elder Scrolls does it, different types of humans that look different and have different abilities. But apparently you can't suggest that without also condoning rape.

Of course you can suggest things without condoning rape. Don't be silly.

But we are talking about two different things here, race, and culture.  Different human civilizations already have different genetics in game. Look at the descriptions of citizens from different civilizations. So, in that sense, we already have races. The game also has "caste" built in, and plenty of mods use that to provide different skill sets, for example Masterwork dwarves have "guilds" with different aptitudes. The game also has different technologies and cultural sets, to some degree. One human culture will dress differently from other human cultures, depending on which clothes items they've discovered.

The initial post used the derogatory terms "mongoloid, negroid and caucasoid races," which are about as realistic as phlogiston or phrenology. There simply are no such things in the real world. So, what exactly are you proposing the game add? And try to think in terms of "procedurally generated" rather than "defined in the raws." You can already define things in the raws, and I highly doubt Toady is ever going to tie the game to one specific setting by adding various ethnic groups or cultures directly to the raws. That would kind of go against the spirit of the game. This isn't Elder Scrolls, but if you want that you can mod it in.

If you want a game where humans from one part of the world have different genetics, including a propensity for certain traits, and different cultures, we already have that to some degree. If you have specific suggestions as to what to add to this system, then make them. Nobody is going to call you a rapist, I promise.

[Deboche]

So, in that sense, we already have races.

I didn't know that and somehow missed that one little post in the first page that mentioned it. That's good to know.

[Myth]

Indeed, in the game exist races.

I think what many want, is a caste system or sub-races, which, depending on the physical characteristics and culture, gives its name to the variations within the same species, like the mentionated dark elf or duergar. In this case, the game procedurally generated this people. Indeed, put them directly into the raws goes against the spirit of the game.

At least, that's what I want. I can not speak for others.

[rhavviepoodle]

Satyrs and foul blendecs already exist separately in the raws, as do mountain gnomes and dark gnomes. I don't really see how defining sub-races separately in the raws goes against the spirit of the game. One could in fact argue that the only person who knows that the spirit of the game should be is Toady, but I'm not planning on getting into that. Mostly, I'm somewhat neutral on the idea and I figure it'd inevitably be a low priority addition to the game.

[FantasticDorf]

Satyrs and foul blendecs already exist separately in the raws, as do mountain gnomes and dark gnomes. I don't really see how defining sub-races separately in the raws goes against the spirit of the game. One could in fact argue that the only person who knows that the spirit of the game should be is Toady, but I'm not planning on getting into that. Mostly, I'm somewhat neutral on the idea and I figure it'd inevitably be a low priority addition to the game.

Those are kind of bland differentiation's, like saying "This is a gnome, it is good" and "This is a bizarro gnome, it is bad" lets unimaginitively put them in seperate areas? Like functionally toady COULD put in a sub-species caste system with some flags basically telling the game these creatures are the same but here's some [variation tags like giant animals broadly] to tell the procedural game engine some fixtures of what it can generate (because what's the point in defining creatures who dont meet/interbreed or even live in the same areas as the same?) but besides from palette/elemental swaps what's really to gain?

One of Toady's goals is to eventually have different dragons however (venomous fire-less dragons etc), so that could play into that, and actually having appropriate types of gnome, as long as there is a way to cap how many types can exist at once (Based off the core Gnome creature raw etc with the subspecies modifier [LOCATION_ALL] etc. - Mountain Gnomes, Cavern Gnomes, Desert Gnomes etc) so they aren't ubiquitous and irritating without reason but also a nessecity to be not too unpredictable in a also annoying way more than expected. Something like detailed below (without the full complexity of a finished system, just defining some parts.

Code: (A basic example of what im talking about with a suggested subspecies system) [Select]

[CREATURE:GNOME]
[SUBSPECIES ONLY] //Restricted to these subspecies instead of using the template original raw, which is then summarily wiped from historical view but kept relevant to the creature for overwriting with subspecies tags and completing shared traits. Subspecies don't overlap with the original species if they are identical (same biome, no alignment, same features etc).

[SUBSPECIES:A] // Generic friendly nature loving gnomes
[ANY_LOCATION] // Mountain gnomes live in mountains etc.
[GOOD:SOMETIMES] // Weighted between being good/neutral with additional factors like if good areas are availible, skipping to neutral if the biome is correct and no good areas are accepted, if both draw blanks the species does not generate at all with [SUBSPECIES ONLY]
[EVIL:NONE]
[SPHERE:GOOD:SOMETIMES] // Wieghted to be 50/50 between a range, flip a coin on nature vs good or get good odds for a combined value
[SPHERE:NATURE:SOMETIMES]

[SUBSPECIES:B] // Same creature but with different and more rigid differentiations
[ANY_LOCATION]
[EVIL:ALWAYS]
[GENERATE_BP_FEATURES:EVIL:HORNS:CURVED] //Overlaps much like creature variation does now, without further definition it scales to relative size, so you could have a subspecies of gorlak with small tusks and teeth or one really big eye etc.
[SPHERE:GREED]
[RARE] //Opposite of ubiquitous, they will only gather in certain site areas rather than a whole range span of a embarkation tile, chances of them walking into your fortress are decreased especially if the area is crowded with other creatures .


But getting back on point, defining sentients differences unless they are based in REALLY GOOD REASON and distinguishable is derogatory in the same kind of sense as the OP's insensitive categorisation of human groups.

And most certainly minor facial appearances that could be interpreted as racist ('closely set eyes' etc, basically bordering on yellow-face) wouldn't be welcome variations in sentient 'sub-species' (which doesn't add a lot, even in the fantasy setting without VAST differences like cuthuluesque living beard deep dwarves and regular dwarves, if we were living as dwarves right now it would be highly racist to compare the two or two types of dwarves via stereotypes. Racism towards living intelligent things exists even if you dont percieve them as your own and humankind doesn't really think about other intelligent things but themselves *which is why many people are blind to racism because they believe/brought up in a abstracted mind of view that the issues are not shared, its perfectly fine to mock fictional stereotypes and racism in their eyes comparable to the ordeals real people go through*)

[rhavviepoodle]

This thread has had me imagining how I would respond if I was playing a human in a tabletop game and the GM asked what ethnicity I was planning on playing. "Sounds good to me. Are you going to be white, then? Black? Asian?" I think maybe I would be flabbergasted, to say the least. I mentioned this earlier, where sub-sets of non-humans generally seem acceptable in fantasy settings, but not nearly as much for humans. The only way I can figure it wouldn't be weird is if there were sub-sets that lived underground and had adapted to caverns. Or there could be neanderthals, but that might could offend sensibilities of those that believe in intelligent creation. I guess the situation is complicated and thorny, and I don't envy Toady having to sort through stuff like this on a regular basis.

[GhostDwemer]

Rhavviepoodle: But if the GM asked you what country you wanted to be from, and one was a desert country where everyone had dark skin and rode camels, while another was a northern country where everyone had light skin, red hair, and rode battle-sheep, that would be totally normal. And this is what we already have in Dwarf Fortress.

FantasticDorf: We already have what you describe and the tag is called "caste." Right now it is mostly used for male/female distinctions in the base game, but mods like Masterwork use it for sub-races or clans or classes. (Urok is a type of orc, smith guild is a type of dwarf)

So I guess I am still really, really confused as to what this whole thread is for. No one has suggested anything new, except to put things like "caucasian, monogoloid and negroid" into the base raws, which is not the best suggestion in the world, given that we already have something better than that in terms of random procedurally generated genetic differences. Remember, this game is not meant to cover any specific world, story or myth but to be as generic a fantasy world builder as possible.

So hey, I'll make a suggestion and it is a bigger tech tree so that we get some tribal civilizations who are basically stone age still, with bronze and iron age civilizations of the same race with actual different conurbation generators so a northern tribe of human reindeer herders living in tents would form different looking settlements than a southern bronze age civ with adobe buildings.

[rhavviepoodle]

On the topic of tech-progression showing up in world-gen, what if ethics did something similar? So one civ of dwarves might believe differently about truth and craftsmanship than another, for example.

[GhostDwemer]

Rhavviepoodle, I think that would go a long way to differentiating ethnic groups or civilizations, good suggestion. Some cultures might value knowledge, others warfare, still others would value  stability, tradition, family, religion or whatnot.