Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[zenos14]

In Kanddak's thread on hydrodynamics he mentions

2. If water is in open space above a tile which is full of water to 7/7, it finds a path through tiles of 7/7 water to the nearest non-full space on a lower z-level, and then teleports there until the space is full or there is no water left to teleport. It only pathfinds north, east, south, west, up, and down; not diagonally. It does not move creatures or objects. This one rule is "pressure".

There's 2 clarifications I'm wondering about, I think I know the answer but I'm wondering if anyone has some experience with something similar to what I'm about to do

1st question, say your set up is as follows
Side view   |=water falling down here
 |  ▒ Y▒▒    ≈=Water
≈≈▒≈≈X    ▒=Wall
▒≈≈≈▒       = space
▒▒▒▒▒▒     

Assuming water falls down from a z-level higher up somewhere to the left, am I correct in assuming it will teleport to the empty space at the X as quickly as it falls down (provided X/the space below it does not become completely filled up) and won't overflow into the Y space?


And second question, assuming there's an artificial river leading off the map being fed by an artificial waterfall, does the pressure of the falling water cause it to teleport off the map or will it only teleport if there is at least one non-7/7 water tile at the end of the river?

[PatrikLundell]

You're not doing the the dwarven way: You should first flood your fortress by accident and THEN as what you should have considered

1. That won't work, because the U bend effect means one water level is lost to the bend. If the falling water had been standing water it would exert sufficient pressure to push the water up to the X. However, if there's nowhere for the water to go, pouring water down there will create pressure to get the water to move through the U.
If the water comes in from the side, i.e. flows on top of the water to the left side (or possibly on top of a floor in between with a hole down below the |) it will not push up into Y. If you drop it from above the | it will push up into Y when | is full and the water accumulates on top of that (the "Side" level).

2. Falling water does not exert a pressure, it's done by water piling up (which is close to the same thing). The question is a bit imprecise, so there are three answers.
a. If you carved a fortification at the same level as the "river" that "river" would drain through the fortification, and so your falling water would end up trying to fill up that draining river.
b1. If the "river" has an open air tile above it and a fortification carved at that upper level the falling water would try to build up a water layer on top of the bottom one and flow out through the fortification.
b2. If the "river" is actually a u bend tunnel with a fortification carved at the level above the end (with an open air tile U bend tile beside it) the water would fill up the same level under the fall and would start to push water out only as the next level above that started to flood (which could cause water to spread out a bit where you don't want it.

[zenos14]

1. That won't work, because the U bend effect means one water level is lost to the bend. If the falling water had been standing water it would exert sufficient pressure to push the water up to the X. However, if there's nowhere for the water to go, pouring water down there will create pressure to get the water to move through the U.
If the water comes in from the side, i.e. flows on top of the water to the left side (or possibly on top of a floor in between with a hole down below the |) it will not push up into Y. If you drop it from above the | it will push up into Y when | is full and the water accumulates on top of that (the "Side" level).

Okay, did a bit of experimentation on a smaller scale, and while you're correct that one level would be lost to the bend, it seems the left side has to fully fill up before it will flow through the bend, which for practical applications is exactly what I wanted

2. Falling water does not exert a pressure, it's done by water piling up (which is close to the same thing). The question is a bit imprecise, so there are three answers.
a. If you carved a fortification at the same level as the "river" that "river" would drain through the fortification, and so your falling water would end up trying to fill up that draining river.

a was the scenario I meant, and it looks like a river source tile output water slightly slower than it drains off the map so unless the water output from an aquifer is higher (or I end up going with multiple waterfalls and misjudge the rate it drains off the map) I will probably have to apply the lesson from above and use a U-bend to fill up the "river" save for the very end

You're not doing the the dwarven way: You should first flood your fortress by accident and THEN as what you should have considered

Hey now, I can't flood it YET, even ignoring practical applications like there still being ~15 z-levels of the fortress to carve out before I'll even hit the aquifer that'll feed the river or how I currently lack a Monarch, the king/queen's throne room, or the planned 500x500x20 tile reservoir held back by a pair of artifact floodgates right behind the royal throne/royal lever that will wash said Monarch out of said throne room at the top of the 40 z-level central common area, the simple fact of the matter is I have to finish the last 2 z-levels of the external wall guarding the surface village of non-dwarves and those of ...undesirable/elf-like preferences which is located LOWER than the rest of the fortress thanks to the massive valley clift the fortress is built into, otherwise when the gates are raised the the fortress flooded, the water level in said village won't rise high enough to prevent survivors in the highest buildings.

Hmm... come to think of it I need to include something that will prevent the water from flowing over the village wall, otherwise we might have people washed out, does the thing about water not keeping pressure when flowing through diagonals hold true with floodgates/raised drawbridges?

And the fisherdwarf may be safe on his dock, will have to set that and the mine entrance up to collapse (in case there's any miners in the caverns where it'll be "Safe"), not sure what to do about he woodcutter, herbalist, or hunter though, unless I just make sure they're in the village when the lever is pulled

[Henry47]

or the planned 500x500x20 tile reservoir

That's an insanely large reservoir. If my rough calculations are right, digging it in stone would take a dozen legendary miners about a century to dig it out(assuming 20 tiles per day mined, with half of the miners time spent actually mining), and it would also generate over a million boulders, which would kill your FPS.

[PatrikLundell]

or the planned 500x500x20 tile reservoir

That's an insanely large reservoir. If my rough calculations are right, digging it in stone would take a dozen legendary miners about a century to dig it out(assuming 20 tiles per day mined, with half of the miners time spent actually mining), and it would also generate over a million boulders, which would kill your FPS.

You'd also need at least an 11*11 size FPS draining embark, and the 64 bit version to fit the game in memory.

[zenos14]

That's an insanely large reservoir. If my rough calculations are right, digging it in stone would take a dozen legendary miners about a century to dig it out(assuming 20 tiles per day mined, with half of the miners time spent actually mining), and it would also generate over a million boulders, which would kill your FPS.

Truth be told I just picked a big number, but the top dozen and a half or so layers I do plan to hollow out and fill with water, it's a lot more than I need I'll admit but I want either A) a stupid amount of pressure to fling items and dwarves around or B) my computer to crash as a result of that lever pull

Stopping to actually think about it instead of pulling numbers out of my ass, it's realistically going to be more on the order of ~240x~160x18-20

Aditionally it's the final stage of my megaproject, I'm already having everyone who's not already legendary AND working on something at the moment dig in cycles to train them up, I fully expect most of the fort to be at or near legendary in mining by the time I get there.

You'd also need at least an 11*11 size FPS draining embark, and the 64 bit version to fit the game in memory.

I like to build spread out and find anything smaller than a 5x5 embark restricting
My FPS usually ends up really really shit, but I've learned to live with it

[Fleeting Frames]

I'm not sure pressure moves anything much (though this is easy to test). After all, teleporting water leaves socks in way undisturbed, it is water evening out with dry tiles that moves them.

[Goatmaan]

Not sure if you're channeling or mining that space. What's the forts population?
Anyhow, crosstraining miners is powerful. Once a miner hits +5 add hauling labors or a skill you can control. Trade goods, wood, stone...set up right you can "pulse" them by keeping the +5's busy the others get the mining job. Very powerful.
I mined out a 3 tile hallway grid, wich left large blocks of unmined space. Now I just designate a block or two on the far edge. I use the granite for blocks to floor the 6*6 wich I DO NOT recommend for fps (items) reasons. If mining, catapults can keep the +5's busy too.
That's a lot of map to shred, train the miners first.

  Good luck,
  Goatmaan

Edit:  I misssed the whole "cycling" post, sorry about that!

[Dunamisdeos]

I HAVE DIAGRAMS ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

I LOVE DIAGRAMS.

I like to include drains in my designs in case a crundle or noble gets into the works somehow and drown.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here is another diagram for how to pierce the water source from the edge of the source from above.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also if you hollow out 12 entire z-levels and fill it with water you will most assuredly get a B result after you spend maybe a week or two IRL waiting for it to mine out through all the lag. The biggest reservoir I've ever had was like 6z tall and 6x6. It instantly fired water through the pipes and across the map.

[zenos14]

I'm not sure pressure moves anything much (though this is easy to test). After all, teleporting water leaves socks in way undisturbed, it is water evening out with dry tiles that moves them.

Not sure if it works for items but I'm pretty sure previous !!SCIENCE!! has shown it'll affect creatures
Or at least I think it has

Not sure if you're channeling or mining that space. What's the forts population?

A bit of both, dig up to the top then channel down is the plan
Right now ~110 but I'm only on the third year

Also if you hollow out 12 entire z-levels and fill it with water you will most assuredly get a B result after you spend maybe a week or two IRL waiting for it to mine out through all the lag. The biggest reservoir I've ever had was like 6z tall and 6x6. It instantly fired water through the pipes and across the map.

I mostly just want something that'll flood the fort really really quickly
My initial thought was an inverted pyramid to minimize the number of tiles that won't be affected by pressure as the water in the reservoir goes down, but then I realized I couldn't fit one that would have enough water for the 41 diameter X ~20z-level central chamber much less the industrial/residential districts
Actually now that I'm thinking of it again I might do something like that depending on if I can get a pump setup in the upper level aquifer to keep it filled and pressurized

I still want a huge hanging above my fortress like the Sword of Damocles though

[GhostDwemer]

zenos14, science has shown that teleporting water won't move things or creatures. Pressure simply means water is using the teleportation mechanic. The other mechanic is called "spread" and it is spread that pushes things and creatures around. Spread is what happens when water is not "pressurized" and some tiles have less water than other tiles. Water in a tile with more will psuedo-randomly move to a tile with less water, and as it does so, it pushes things and creatures along with it.

If teleporting water moved creatures and items, all swimming creatures like fish, and things dropped in rivers like logs would be pushed along until they reached the edge of the map. They plainly do not move at all.

[Mostali]

I expect that there will be a small amount of "push" that you likely won't even notice, but the whole thing will be over very, very quickly.  I believe stacked fluid teleports at 1z per tick.  So in Dunamisdeos' 6x6x6 example, the top five z's went in the first 5 ticks, making it appear instantaneous.  If you build 12z deep it'll be 11 ticks of teleport, followed by a very long flow from the last layer.  The small "push" will come during those 11 ticks as the water wall border flows, before of course being overwhelmed and replaced by more teleporting water from the next tick.

I could be completely wrong though, having no experience in drowning my dwarves.  I'm pretty good at not flooding. (knock on wood)