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Author Topic: [Bugfix/Science] Suggestion - Death prognosis on the healthscreen/mindscreen  (Read 3360 times)

FantasticDorf

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I think i've just realised a big crutch of a issue with the health & mind system. (check out all the hyperlinks for relevant bug report info)

There isn't actually a status or flatline point in which it actually stops, when all creatures die (since subliminally as dwarf therapist shows, the dwarf mind system carries over to all things, hence why there are passive trolls - non big predators run away in terror and even crundles have flexible bravado, rutherers are particularly skittish despite being huge) you simply become a item that is synonymous with you (the corpse) and stop breathing, seeing and grasping medically, but the actual death state is superficial to having your body converted/smashed into bits and summary corpse. Screenshot below is from my rotted partial skeleton of a miner in his granite coffin where he has been residing for 3 months after dying in the first year, he is still currently a skeleton at the time of that health checkup 3 months on from time of death



Your thoughts stop because you are 'dead' (no longer embodied as a living thing in the world), but 'your mind and soul is aliiiiive' if not quite literally thinking, just a vegtable. Hence why the bugs with being reluctant to butcher sentients and pets, because the game only marks creatures (and summary materials of those creatures) that are wild & not intelligent (basically within the hunting category, anything not marked on the forbid screen on (O)orders as non-hunt)

> If nothing actually 'dies' and remains active on the relationship screen then they are simply corpses of 'horrifically mangled' friends hence why there are bugs circulating surrounding 'horror' and corpse refuse piles creating discipline but also emotional trauma

Not to mention that the game also using this logic is utmost zealous against using teeth/breakoff bones (& certain parts like scales) even from animals until they are dead (punch a snake in the mouth for 20+ teeth you cannot process, prior or before the snake is dead/butchered, though limbs are a allowed type to be processed) & entombing all the pieces (teeth included, hence why i mention the snake example for evidence, or whatever retrievable body part they can recover because its actually all part of the 'lost soul' inside a corpse that is never gone whether people remember them or not). The previous dead miner's own tomb made and assigned for them AFTER they were dead, humble and small because i didn't have time/space during setup.



I guess i should call this the 'Omikron bug' because apparently souls are a big deal and the biggest cause of bug issues in the game right now from getting trapped with nowhere to be 'Nomads' i guess existing in null space forever where they can't be interacted with inside thier coffins. This would somehow relate to people playing horses in adventure-mode i guess if the armies just check what has/doesn't have a soul instead of picking out actual citizens. (theoretically at-least)

> Pets can be buried and are likely subject to the same rules, hence why i evidence other things in saying that they have the same tangible souls as the rest but are within the fortress factional group (a crundle would be buried with its scales etc if they were seperated), also experiencing the same thing as sentients (emotions, fear, complacency, though animals have overriding flags most of the time, its also the reason why in the latest versions certain creatures give up when they 'lose a brawl' using their paws only in neutral 'brawl mode' used for default non enemies if they are already hostile, and using their 'hands' because they dont possess weapons)


Back towards more suggestion talk, additionally a way to prognosis whether someone is dead with medical expertise, which should make creatures that deliberately play dead in future (etc - 'Inspect Corpse' on a "corpse" of a reacher with 'feign death' rather than 'dead' on its health screen) in addition to marking passed away members explicitly - dead to signify (because the only way this was found out, was by using a exploit that allowed you to look at the individuals relationships, and then branch off to the dead person's mind screen allowing you to access the usual menu's, no third party tools)

Conclusion: Macabre but expanding the field of 'death' would make things a lot more concise and clearer in the game and runs smoother

Feedback on this suggestion and little bit of research and application of my knowledge to help remedy bugs would be appreciated.


References
  • 0010031: Wild creatures that should normally be hostile due to their [LARGE_PREDATOR] tag are harmless if intelligent.
  • 0009171: Butcher returns of sentient creatures are unusable, regardless of adventurer's ethics
  • 0007435: Dwarves overwhelmed by horror at the sight of the refuse stockpile
  • 0009083: Dwarves no longer grieve for friends and family
  • 0009141: You can play as a horse in adventure mode
  • 0009977: Cave and Saltwater Crocs (and probably every other tame animal.) refuse to hurt enemies further, after they damage their legs.
  • 0009633: War animal's eye tooth carried between tomb and stockpile (endless loop).
  • 0007541: Dogs only scratch instead of biting
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 01:13:35 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Random_Dragon

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I'm...not sure if this is right. Thinking on it, I do see one possible argument in favor of this.

Last I checked, random peasant skeletons can provide usable bones, and clothing generated using sentient materials (like troll fur taken from a goblin) can be used in reactions.
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On DF Wiki · On DFFD

"Hey idiots, someone hacked my account to call you all idiots! Wasn't me you idiots!" seems to stretch credulity a bit.

FantasticDorf

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I'm...not sure if this is right. Thinking on it, I do see one possible argument in favor of this.

Last I checked, random peasant skeletons can provide usable bones, and clothing generated using sentient materials (like troll fur taken from a goblin) can be used in reactions.

You are correct. However later research by myself concluded that a peasant skeleton only naturally occurs when a civ member falls off their designated living z level (I had one down the bottom of a local dark pit. Being a goblin adventurer, they were still fresh after id scaled down the walls of the walls of the cavern and ate some of their meat). It seems to be that since they were non-historical it doesn't count.

Thank you for showing interest in my old thread.

> Continuation of my research persists here  Eating Sapients FotF Derail & via tactfullly watching the DFhack github, there are some changes happening that positive in the direction of trying to amend it by shuffling around the code. Hopefully if all their work goes in the right direction we might see a binary patch within our lifetime for it.  :D



Troll fur is a yarn subtype that can only be extracted & used by goblins because trolls are semi-intelligent. I forget the specifics & will retrace my research but its relevant to the animal products & yarn & fur is not relevant to the BP which is covered by the health system (unlike tusks, which if you kill a troll will also be unusable)

This is a old thread that predates my own findings.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 02:05:39 pm by FantasticDorf »
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