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Author Topic: Fortress Checklist  (Read 15283 times)

wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2016, 05:16:41 pm »

You must have...  The site I picked had huge high wood trees.

Oh well.  Its still there in that world. Lots of good embark sites on it.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2016, 05:32:02 am »

1. Pause, observe the local lay of the land, identify anything unusual.
If rolling clouds of mysterious colour, raining blood, acid or disease, certain vermin are around, dig down into the soil immediately and upon setting up preliminary stockpiles, begin carving into stone.
2. Set up a forge and begin producing tools, weapons, crossbows and ammunition at once. Set up the first military squad and commence training so that the outpost has dedicated defence from the start.
3. If nothing immediately hazardous has been identified, begin setting up refuse stockpiles, stockpiles, graveyards and farms, preferably 30- tiles away from some sort of water source (if none is found, it is no worry at this point).
4. Chain up guard animals by the front entrance, build a barracks by the stockpiles.
5. Set up the carpentry, distillery and masonry works to prepare for the arrival of migrants.
6. Construct dedicated bedroom quarters for the migrants, once the first 2 waves have arrived begin preparing for the arrival of merchants.
7. Construct more specialized industry works like the kitchens, craftsdwarf workshop, farmer's workshop, mechanic's workshop and permanent forges e.t.c. (constructing the trade depot once cloth crafts begin getting pumped out)
8. Expand the military and industry to foster enough logistical support to a full time army and a sizeable militia. Attempt to acquire war animals of some sort to provide auxiliary sentry duty with expendable units.
9. Begin fortifying the surface and the caverns, begin placing traps to acquire more exotic animal species.

By this point the Fortress should be ready for its first ambushes, sieges and megabeasts.

10. Set up a hospital and the most advanced industries (including a transition to magma based forges if possible).
11. Begin employing the most advanced alloys or metals available, smelting down obsolete metals for trade.
12. Begin smelting down inferior quality crafts, aiming to get all weapons and armour to at least =exceptional= quality.
13. Begin employing the child workforce for agriculture, in harvesting food, booze and textile crops, in anticipation for their entry into the adult workforce.

By this point the Fortress should be ready to take on megaprojects with low casualties

Atarlost

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2016, 05:37:20 pm »

To sort of unify the training wheels discussion and the checklist, I've been coming to a training wheels checklist. 

1) Set the pop cap really low.
2) Use the site finder to get sand, shallow and deep metals, no aquifer, and flux.
3) Dig out a minimal surface fort of a farm, dormitory, critical workshops, and a quantum everything but corpses and refuse stockpile. 
3a) Avoid creating any wealth you can avoid in order to avoid attracting FBs. 
4) Find and wall up all the caverns and the magma sea.
5) Carve your actual fort starting 2 z levels above the top of the magma sea with a factory floor channeled down for magma access. 
6) Wall off most of cavern 3 (in my experience 3 is actually pretty sparsely populated, has the best trees, and is closest to the low fort)
7) Dig a wagon ramp to the low fort. 
8) Abandon the upper fort. 
9) Change your pop limit to something that allows sieges and nobles and stuff and start creating wealth. 

By keeping population down and FPS high it's easier to build semi-megaprojects like 100 z level spiral death ramps than it would be with more workers.  The sweet spot on my computer seems to be about 20. 
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2016, 06:12:36 pm »

Wow, I find the sweet spot to be MUCH higher than 20. I don't care how fast your FPS is, 20 workers can't run a fort and build a megaproject quickly at all. I've got 100 dorfs, 60 visitors, my FPS is 15-20 and I am very happy with the speed at which I can crank out megaprojects. More dwarfs means walls go up faster. With 20 dwarves, megaprojects take in-game DECADES to finish.

I'd recommend for training wheels to generate a world with more minerals (lower number in advanced setting tab) and (if you are using LNP) aquifers turned off so you can embark anywhere without worrying about getting through one.

I would also say that where you place the magma workshop varies depending on circumstances, but if you put it right over the magma sea you are asking for magma crabs to take potshots at your builders, and at everyone unless you take care to place the impassable tiles directly over the channeled holes. If one or more crabs zero in on your build area, you will never get it finished and will lose many dwarves. They just love to sit there and spit through the holes in the floor.

Also, there really is no reason to put the trade depot down by the lower fort. I would always rather make it both easier and quicker for wagons to get to/from my depot than make it easier/quicker for dwarves. I've never had a problem with dwarves getting trade goods to my depot, no matter how far the distance. Then again, with only 20 workers, YMMV.

Cavern three has exactly the same number of critters as any other cavern (1 set at a time for normal/calm biomes, 2 sets for wild), but they are generally far more dangerous.
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Atarlost

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2016, 08:53:23 pm »

I don't care how much dwarf time things take.  I care about my time.  20 workers at 50 FPS get things done just as fast as 100 workers at 10 FPS, get caravans more frequently for things I'm not producing, don't elect a mayor, and don't get as many interruptions.  Just werebeasts and wild animals and maybe FBs/Titans if you create too much wealth. 

I think the cavern 3 thing is that flesh balls are harmless and never wander off the map once they appear while other animals do.  As time passes the probability of the third cavern being inhabited only by harmless flesh balls approaches one. 

No one who sees this thread won't know about covering the vents for magma furnaces.  It's very plain on the wiki. 

A deep depot reduces walk time for my dwarves whose time matters at the expense of traders who don't.  With bins terminally bugged selling anything in quantity is a royal pain and even if bins worked properly, nothing you buy except cloth is in them so every individual fruit type you buy a stack of for booze variety is another hauling job.  Every XXpig tail sockXX or Large Troll Fur Loincloth is a hauling job (and another reason to hate bins: bins prevent you from filtering for them).  Those hauling jobs are delaying everything you do. 
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2016, 09:34:17 pm »

Well, the other points aside, it isn't just about covering the magma holes (and I thought we were talking a training wheels list, here, so no assumptions about what anyone has read) but about constructing the covers. It won't get done if you get targeted by crabs, simple as that. You'll have dead and wounded dwarves instead of a magma forge. Plus, I have to say, I hate dealing with the constant warm stone cancellation spam.

It really does not take much time to create an iron block, grate, screw, and tube, construct a magma proof pump, and pump the magma into a reservoir. In my opinion it is a much better method than building directly over the magma sea.

As for depot placement, I agree bins are bad, but I mostly sell high value weapons and/or food.  Hauling isn't much of an issue for me but I suppose it depends on what you are selling. Spamming spiked wooden balls early gets you everything you need from the caravan with very few items, and I like to save stone for more important things. Bins are really only an issue if you are selling stone crafts, and that's just a waste of time.

I hate having long paths for traders to follow. Just more chance of a mishap and an exploded wagon, which seems to happen all to frequently. At least they pack up and skeedadle quick now, it used to be almost a certainty that I would get trader collisions after 5-10 years. Nothing's worse than a dozen stuck wagons!

I also tend to make vertical forts, taking up little horizontal space but covering many z-levels, for efficiency. Finally, there is a huge difference between a 30 z-level embark and a 150 z-level embark. There's really very little difference between "top" and "bottom" in a shallow embark.

Not saying your ideas are bad at all, just giving a little feedback. A lot of it comes down to differences of opinion or play-style.
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azrael4h

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2016, 10:09:05 pm »

1 - Embark
2 - Get eaten by Giant Toad
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2016, 02:50:15 pm »

Well, the other points aside, it isn't just about covering the magma holes (and I thought we were talking a training wheels list, here, so no assumptions about what anyone has read) but about constructing the covers. It won't get done if you get targeted by crabs, simple as that. You'll have dead and wounded dwarves instead of a magma forge. Plus, I have to say, I hate dealing with the constant warm stone cancellation spam.

It really does not take much time to create an iron block, grate, screw, and tube, construct a magma proof pump, and pump the magma into a reservoir. In my opinion it is a much better method than building directly over the magma sea.

As for depot placement, I agree bins are bad, but I mostly sell high value weapons and/or food.  Hauling isn't much of an issue for me but I suppose it depends on what you are selling. Spamming spiked wooden balls early gets you everything you need from the caravan with very few items, and I like to save stone for more important things. Bins are really only an issue if you are selling stone crafts, and that's just a waste of time.

I hate having long paths for traders to follow. Just more chance of a mishap and an exploded wagon, which seems to happen all to frequently. At least they pack up and skeedadle quick now, it used to be almost a certainty that I would get trader collisions after 5-10 years. Nothing's worse than a dozen stuck wagons!

I also tend to make vertical forts, taking up little horizontal space but covering many z-levels, for efficiency. Finally, there is a huge difference between a 30 z-level embark and a 150 z-level embark. There's really very little difference between "top" and "bottom" in a shallow embark.

Not saying your ideas are bad at all, just giving a little feedback. A lot of it comes down to differences of opinion or play-style.

Easy way, even with crabs near the surface:

Normal screwpump pumps water on top of the magma pool. Obsidianation occurs, sealing the magma pool over.  Two layers down, tap into the side of the magma chamber using carved fortifications. This effectively filters the magma against crabs, imps, and "other" magma tolerant creatures.
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2016, 03:14:39 pm »

Wierd, that works but I've never seen the need to cap tubes. Heck, I can't remember the last time I even found a tube, mostly I take magma right from the sea itself. But I don't like using the natural flow method, it takes much longer to fill a reservoir. A single pump will fill a reservoir very quickly, waiting for normal flow to fill it even to 4/7 can take a year in game. Also, I'm pretty sure that carved fortifications are pathable when covered in 7/7 fluids. At least they were in all older versions. Not that I've ever seen crabs, imps or whatnot come through myself, but from what I've read, they can. Nothing gets through a floor grate from below, so that's what I use with the pump. Quick and guaranteed trouble free.
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2016, 03:38:48 pm »

I force my worlds to produce magmatubes using some custom worldgen parameters.  I like magma tubes. Magma crabs, and fire imps, not so much.

A murky pool and a dwarf powered pump expedite safe magma use, and conveniently seals up the breach of the tube to the surface, making cavern exploration safer later on.
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2016, 03:53:31 pm »

Well, if we are going to include "force lots of magma tubes" in the training-wheels checklist (and why not? Who doesn't love magma tubes?) then which parameters do you use to get more of them?

Is it, by chance, raising volcanism? Because, in my experience, that greatly lowers your chance of getting iron. Only hematite shows up in igneous extrusive layers, so you've knocked your chance of iron down by 2/3. Also, the only flux you'll get in high volcanism areas is marble, so you've knocked your chance of getting flux down by 3/4.  If I had to choose "iron" or "magma tubes" for a beginners course, I'd take iron every day. If it's some other method, I'd say that would be fantastic to include for beginners.
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steel jackal

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2016, 03:58:45 pm »

Well, if we are going to include "force lots of magma tubes" in the training-wheels checklist (and why not? Who doesn't love magma tubes?) then which parameters do you use to get more of them?

Is it, by chance, raising volcanism? Because, in my experience, that greatly lowers your chance of getting iron. Only hematite shows up in igneous extrusive layers, so you've knocked your chance of iron down by 2/3. Also, the only flux you'll get in high volcanism areas is marble, so you've knocked your chance of getting flux down by 3/4.  If I had to choose "iron" or "magma tubes" for a beginners course, I'd take iron every day. If it's some other method, I'd say that would be fantastic to include for beginners.

its volcanism, been messing with custom generated worlds myself. and yeah i noticed an annoying lack of metal in general in embarks with volcanos. though my current embark covers two diffrent biomes, and the non-evil mountain has a brook, so heres hoping there will be some iron there.
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2016, 04:02:59 pm »

No.  I leave the volcanism setting alone.  Instead, I force the worldgen spinner to increase the world flatness, forcing it to generate more sedimentary and deep soil layers.

I do that by meddling with the X and Y variance setting, (making it about 1/3 of normal), and increasing volcanism X Y variance by 3x, setting volcano number to 200, while setting min peaks to 1, and min mountain region to something like 40. Erosion count at 1000, and subregions at 5000, just for good measure.

Worldgen has a very hard time with these settings, but it reliably produces magma tubes on sedimentary layers, that are pancake flat.  I usually get about 3 to 4 such embark sites on large regions. Sometimes more.
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steel jackal

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2016, 04:10:40 pm »

No.  I leave the volcanism setting alone.  Instead, I force the worldgen spinner to increase the world flatness, forcing it to generate more sedimentary and deep soil layers.

I do that by meddling with the X and Y variance setting, (making it about 1/3 of normal), and increasing volcanism X Y variance by 3x, setting volcano number to 200, while setting min peaks to 1, and min mountain region to something like 40. Erosion count at 1000, and subregions at 5000, just for good measure.

Worldgen has a very hard time with these settings, but it reliably produces magma tubes on sedimentary layers, that are pancake flat.  I usually get about 3 to 4 such embark sites on large regions. Sometimes more.

hm, my current embark isnt even through the first month yet. ill try your settings and see if i can get anything better than what i have.

little note, if you have an intel CPU you can gen 4 worlds at once without performance loss (if your ram can handle it) and up to 8 on an AMD cpu, since df can only use 1 thread, intel has 4 threads, AMD has 8

also, its probably a very bad idea to try that if you have a single threaded CPU, and ive seen a surprising number of people with those around here


and do you mean elevation x/y variance?

my fingers... they burn... why cant today make it so that we can imput numbers instead of raising and lowering them by 1???
this is cookie clicker all over again....
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 04:34:32 pm by steel jackal »
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rhavviepoodle

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2016, 04:41:30 pm »

Since I'm very mediocre at fortress mode, I usually start several projects at the same time and they eventually get finished.

First I set up a general stockpile and some dormitories. At that point I usually start digging out important infrastructure, such as wells and meeting rooms. Since soil is good for training miners, I sometimes have them dig out pastures and farming areas at this point (bonus points if I can set up a modest-sized greenhouse for growing above-ground crops). The next thing is permanent workshop rooms and stockpiles, so that I can start building furniture for permanent housing.

Generally I use whatever resources I've got on hand (I usually play on relatively peaceful maps and lean quite hard on traps, so I tend to run a weak military), so I try not to fuss too hard about foundries unless the map makes it really easy (yay magma tubes). I do usually dig down to caverns pretty early, both to help figure how my infrastructure needs [or doesn't need] to be spaced out and so that I can run underground pastures, which are definitely more safe than the outside kind.

Once all that stuff is done (or at the very least in progress), I go ahead and start building all the bonus fun stuff like taverns, libraries, and arenas. The priority of mass pitting rooms and the like depend on how clogged my cage traps are by trogs (once again, props to magma tubes which make trog disposal really easy with mass pitting).
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