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Author Topic: Fortress Checklist  (Read 15513 times)

wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2016, 04:47:12 pm »

Yes.  It controls the degree of difference one region can be elevated from another.  High values make very noisy, high cliff worlds.  Low values make slow rolling changes in elevation.

Volcanism has its own X Y variance control that does the same, but for the volcanism variable.  Setting it really high makes volcanism more random and noisy, and allows very low volcanism regions to be right next to volcanoes. Max subregions being very high allows the region to better reflect this with appropriate mineral and biome coverage.

Another that would be good to throw in would be weighted mesh for volcanism, forcing volcanic region areas to be small. That would allow a magma tube to coexist on a normal size embark with sedimentary layers.
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2016, 04:53:14 pm »

No.  I leave the volcanism setting alone.  Instead, I force the worldgen spinner to increase the world flatness, forcing it to generate more sedimentary and deep soil layers.

I do that by meddling with the X and Y variance setting, (making it about 1/3 of normal), and increasing volcanism X Y variance by 3x, setting volcano number to 200, while setting min peaks to 1, and min mountain region to something like 40. Erosion count at 1000, and subregions at 5000, just for good measure.

Worldgen has a very hard time with these settings, but it reliably produces magma tubes on sedimentary layers, that are pancake flat.  I usually get about 3 to 4 such embark sites on large regions. Sometimes more.

Nice. This is very good to know.
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steel jackal

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2016, 04:57:52 pm »

Yes.  It controls the degree of difference one region can be elevated from another.  High values make very noisy, high cliff worlds.  Low values make slow rolling changes in elevation.

Volcanism has its own X Y variance control that does the same, but for the volcanism variable.  Setting it really high makes volcanism more random and noisy, and allows very low volcanism regions to be right next to volcanoes. Max subregions being very high allows the region to better reflect this with appropriate mineral and biome coverage.

Another that would be good to throw in would be weighted mesh for volcanism, forcing volcanic region areas to be small. That would allow a magma tube to coexist on a normal size embark with sedimentary layers.

you sure know a lot about custom world gens, you should write up a post explaining the mechanics behind it and how it actually functions
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2016, 05:11:36 pm »

Just read the wiki.

The undisputed master of custom worldgen is vjek. He has a "cookbook" thread here in fortress mode discussion. He has contributed greatly to the custom worldgen page on the wiki. Very good info there.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Advanced_world_generation

Just think about what it is exactly you want:

In this case, flat worlds resist creation of volcano cones, increasing rate of magma tubes. ( it also reduces chances of normal mountain placement, so reduce min mountain region to avoid endless rejections.)

Volcanism variance being very high allows sharp changes in the volcanism variable value for a region or subregion. This let's 100% sit right next to 0%, if set really high.

High erosion wears down what volcano cones do form.

High max subregions allows more biome types per major region, but use with care unless doing large worlds.

A weighted mesh for volcanism allows you to control the granularity of the volcanism variable, including the region tile size.  Set this to a tiny value to force tiny areas where volcanism is constrained to.

That should let you have a tiny volcanic "plug" with the magma tube, embedded in surrounding sedimentary layers.

Again, the worldgen spinner cries bitter tears trying this, so patience us needed.
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steel jackal

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2016, 05:18:04 pm »

yeah, up to about 27200 rejects across the 4 instances i have running.

i keep getting "cant place controllable civilization" error, ive been pressing c to let it continue while still rejecting those worlds. is that error normal?
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2016, 05:23:08 pm »

yeah, up to about 27200 rejects across the 4 instances i have running.

i keep getting "cant place controllable civilization" error, ive been pressing c to let it continue while still rejecting those worlds. is that error normal?
Sounds to me like it can't find mountains. The "controllable civ" is dwarves and dwarves must be placed on mountains. You haven't reduced max height from 400, have you? Or upped the erosion passes to high? Either can result in terminal lack of mountains.
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2016, 05:25:31 pm »

How low did you set the x y variance for elevation?

1/3 of normal is the LOWEST I have been able to successfully implement. Try raising it by increments if 25 until the spinner stops rejecting. Usually setting peaks at 1 forces at least some mountains, which are needed to place dwarf civs at worldgen.
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steel jackal

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2016, 05:29:11 pm »

i set it to 150, which is above 1/3 of the default 401

and the worldgen does stop and get to placing civilizations, but it usually rejects during that

also i should mention that im using a medium region, that might have something to do with it

ill change two of the instances to large regions with the same settings and see if that helps


im done with this for the night, i will probably continue tomorrow
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 06:09:59 pm by steel jackal »
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2016, 06:13:50 pm »

 now you see why it took 2 days to gen that world I sent you. ;)
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steel jackal

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2016, 06:18:21 pm »

now you see why it took 2 days to gen that world I sent you. ;)

indeed, and here i thought it was just magic

if only there was some kind of utility that could generate a world for us that would ignore certain rules and just make it playable even if it shouldent work.

ik theres perfect world or something, and thats close, but it dosnt just outright magically make a world that works, and is flat, and has exactly what we want
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i am a dwarf and im digging a hole, diggy diggy hole

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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2016, 06:27:52 pm »

I will try to generate a super noobie training wheel world with everything. I have the Chromebook with me. It is double mild weak sauce, but it can crank on worldgen with the lid closed while I work.

I will try a medium region, with low scarcity.

So far so good. A world is generating history now. Medium region, 200 volcanoes, no oceans, 150x150 xy variance, 2x2 volcanism mesh, 800x800 volcanism xy variance, 100 civs, 800 scarcity, 4000 max subregions, default erosion.

I am generating 500yr history. Will check for good sites when finished.

Should be very noob friendly. We will see.
5886 rejections.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 06:53:17 pm by wierd »
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2016, 11:20:40 pm »

Looks radically successful.

Most volcanoes have deep soil, shallow metal, deep metal, and many have flux.

Sadly, no magma tubes. Seem constraining volcanism mesh causes more aggressive cone formation. I will look for a nice isolated cone with all the features.

Strike that.  Found a tube with shallow, deep metals, and flux. No aquifer or stream though.  If you make a large embark you can get the river.

Since I don't have prospector, I am test embarking.  Sandy loam soil type. Hit spalerite early.
Continuing test cuts.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 11:36:59 pm by wierd »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2016, 12:58:04 am »

if only there was some kind of utility that could generate a world for us that would ignore certain rules and just make it playable even if it shouldent work.

ik theres perfect world or something, and thats close, but it dosnt just outright magically make a world that works, and is flat, and has exactly what we want
Perfect world works by vanilla world painter, which lets you determine six factors(elevation,rainfall, drainage, volcanism, temperature, savagery)  down to a region tile.

I usually remove all rejection parameters other than playable civs, and rarely see worlds with more than 5 rejections - I'm leery about even one, though, since I've had that make the worldgen not work cross-platform when sharing the parameters.


Anyway, topically: When I plan a new fortress, I ask myself what I want for it. So, before embarking I have a checklist for world gen.

It will most likely look like this:

Desired biomes F,P,T.

Desired neighbours g,h,e.

Desired features ®, ©

Desired minerals $, Š

So...A CHECKLIST FOR THAT:

1. Paint desired elevation, deciding at this time where e, h, g, dwarves and potential sites for my desired embark will go.

I frequently make use of oceans here to enforce a geographical separation, which forces either medium+ or low elevation (lest it be eaten by lake and ocean merge) for the desired embark. Rivers and lakes also require elevation cliffs and canyons to have semblance of directing them further out.

Wiki also suggests they're relevant for surprisingly common alluvial layers, which don't take anything away and add clusters of gold, tin and platinum.

2. Paint savagery, and if need to be, temperature, to corral those civilization to the start spots I want.

Notably, elves won't settle on taiga and I find humans like 25 savagery the most and dwarves are typically placed first. Dwarves will outright fail with anything more exciting than calm mountain, but others find wilds pretty tenable. Using 67 savagery squares works for relatively easily-expanded areas that will not be settled on, to corral the growth of civilization to end with a town towards my location.

3. Paint their and my own desired embark's required rainfalls, then drainages, then temperatures.
Notably, I frequently go for large evil and medium good regions or vice-versa for neighbours e and g, controlling them indirectly through painted region sizes.

4. Paint volcanisms as desired.
I by default go for a grid of 2-51-99 volcanisms. Keeps the soil layers more varied between biomes, but unless you really want a volcano, magma pipe, to avoid stone aquifers or aluminium(only significant thing unique to igneous extrusive) I'd recommend going for lower end volcanisms for desired biome.

Note that for biomes that shear in you can get things like flux and clay through their tiles, but the minerals present will be determined by the base local level map you see pre-embark; there will never be limonite and native gold veins in same 48x48 square.

(Though I've at least once found a magma pipe in sedimentary layer tile - albeit only once.)

5. At this point, the long-ass checking for desired features ® and © starts.
I likely already have made them more likely, but I nonetheless have to gen numerous worlds to year 2 and check for embarks with ®, © and F, P, T, something which takes exponentially longer as the lists of those grows.

Of particular interest is that layer materials go under here as feature rather than mineral. Though you can often keep geography the same while changing their materials by changing volcanism - even directly on top of them - so if you accidentally painted an igneous extrusive on your embark, fret not. This means that I may very well gen something with F, P, T (easy) and then fine-tune towards ® and ©.

Other single-tile variables can also often be slightly changed without messing up the geography, but it'd be better to not rely on any of them - they very well may be, especially if you had rejections in world gen (as each rejection gives another chance for it to not gen to the same end result).

Here I would ensure my evil biomes are just as evil as I want them to be, by changing the relevant variables of evil cloud, rain and regional interaction numbers. Only really works fully with more than 1 evil biome.

6. Desired minerals $ and Š
This means things like veins or large or small clusters. I typically start out with mineral scarcity set to 500 and then increment downwards till I have what I want. Prospecting here helps.

7. Desired populations of biomes F, P, T.
It'd suck to embark on joyous forest for unicorns and sun berries to find there aren't any, right? Well, very likely are (~est. 80% for any one plant from about 8 counts), but I use region-pops list-all to check. Of note, all the previous stuff would affect the plants, which is why this is here.

If 6. isn't blocking, I like to do 7. or 8. by mineral scarcity since it is such a large range for effects.
Not only surface plants can be affected; Somewhere between 7 and 8 is changing, say, min or max amount of water in caverns - can use this to ensure you have all desired cavern plants with just 1 cavern.
Messing with demon numbers or other cavern parameters should also work.

8. The growth of neighbours e, g and h as desired.
Ideally, I'd do this by history seed, and intermittently pausing the world gen to check the status of sites. Legends mode is useful as well to jump into history at the mid-point of a war.

However, goblins have a nasty habit of wanting to settle on human sites, should I decide to use humans. This can be avoided by keeping history seed constant - keeping their first site locations the same - and changing other parameters that affect the history. If not going for something like mineral scarcity, could perhaps use werebeast, vampire, (semi-)mega, secret, etc. counts, though I haven't been yet forced to use those.

9. Embark and check if e, g, h are in range and show up.
This does mean running for over a year and making a good-sized trade to see human caravan alongside performance troupes, for instance. If one of them doesn't show up, go back to 8.

Also of interest is that surface webs and air biome layouts are determined at embark time.

10. ????

11. Find that there's still more you're capable of improving, and do so.

Back to earlier steps. Perfection is unattainable.

No.  I leave the volcanism setting alone.  Instead, I force the worldgen spinner to increase the world flatness, forcing it to generate more sedimentary and deep soil layers.
Hm. While I haven't tested this much across varied elevation, in my experience the top layers will be either rarely metamorphoric or igneous extrusive / sedimentary depending on the volcanism value of the biome.

Since wiki doesn't mention it, have you done any science that higher elevation variances generate sedimentary layers less often? I've certainly seen them in mountainous areas.

As for your lack of aquifer, could take this and put civilization numbers to 1 to remove danger of invasions: 
PS: It's not really newbie-suitable on account of the neighbours + possibly wanting a rainfall tweak for giant elephants, but I recently did do a 43.03+ flat volcano for request, if you're interested wierd.
PS: If you hit sphalerite early, you're definitely in sucky metamorphic layer, and there isn't any sedimentary in that biome.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 01:17:58 am by Fleeting Frames »
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wierd

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2016, 02:24:35 am »

Doing this without prospector is like doing brain surgery on novacaine, while blindfolded.

So, I hunted on DFFD, and pulled the extreme bleeding edge alpha of DFHack for 43.05.

Only available in windows 64bit, so thats what I pulled.

I have a winner.

Thick conifer forest, abundant plants, temperate, has flux stone, has sedimentary layer, has magnetite (also tetrahydrite and galena, so good fodder metals too), has clay, has sand, has river, has aquifer, has volcano, has all races as neighbors, but no tower.

Only thing it is missing is joyous wilds surroundings. Instead this is neutral/calm.

This has "Training wheels" all over it.

Spoiler: Behold! (click to show/hide)

Test embark with reveal shows some nice, sizable deposits of hematite near the surface in the top right corner of the map. Sand and Fireclay are also shallow/at surface at this location. VERY ABUNDANT Galena, so lots of silver for maces/hammers. Map is dominated by metamorphic minerals though, mostly things like orthoclase, microcline, and pals. Near the volcano there is gabbro, andesite, and pals. Prospect after embark shows that both rope reeds and hemp are present, so surface textiles are a GO. Many fruit trees as well.

I will package the world for sharing, and upload it.

Here is the world file

Noobie strategy suggested:  Surface fortress localized in top right of map, side-tap volcano in side of giant hill, route to magma plumbing in fortress. Mine top-right side of the hill for great justice.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 03:32:18 am by wierd »
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steel jackal

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Re: Fortress Checklist
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2016, 08:54:43 am »

Doing this without prospector is like doing brain surgery on novacaine, while blindfolded.

So, I hunted on DFFD, and pulled the extreme bleeding edge alpha of DFHack for 43.05.

Only available in windows 64bit, so thats what I pulled.

I have a winner.

Thick conifer forest, abundant plants, temperate, has flux stone, has sedimentary layer, has magnetite (also tetrahydrite and galena, so good fodder metals too), has clay, has sand, has river, has aquifer, has volcano, has all races as neighbors, but no tower.

Only thing it is missing is joyous wilds surroundings. Instead this is neutral/calm.

This has "Training wheels" all over it.

Spoiler: Behold! (click to show/hide)

Test embark with reveal shows some nice, sizable deposits of hematite near the surface in the top right corner of the map. Sand and Fireclay are also shallow/at surface at this location. VERY ABUNDANT Galena, so lots of silver for maces/hammers. Map is dominated by metamorphic minerals though, mostly things like orthoclase, microcline, and pals. Near the volcano there is gabbro, andesite, and pals. Prospect after embark shows that both rope reeds and hemp are present, so surface textiles are a GO. Many fruit trees as well.

I will package the world for sharing, and upload it.

Here is the world file

Noobie strategy suggested:  Surface fortress localized in top right of map, side-tap volcano in side of giant hill, route to magma plumbing in fortress. Mine top-right side of the hill for great justice.

hey how did you get dfhack running? i downloaded the 0.43.05 version from gethub and it seems to just be source. is the one on DFFD already compiled or am i missing something?

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i am a dwarf and im digging a hole, diggy diggy hole

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