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Author Topic: Eating Sapients FotF derail.  (Read 31447 times)

Max™

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Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« on: November 05, 2016, 09:46:01 pm »

Arena mode doesn't work because none of the structures outside of arena mode are in place, all of your observations will have to be from adventure mode because ethics from entities doesn't exist to permit it (Its not based in creatures its based in entities in worldgen). At its base form the BP is innate to the creature as defined in the tissue materials.
I came across a giant lion who got a name after killing someone while wandering around, got the idea to take control of it and eat people, seemed fun. I edited that save to add [GRASP] tags to the teeth so I could use tools to butcher my kills, [CANOPENDOORS], and [STANCE_CLIMBER].


This cat has no civ, belongs to no entity, has no ethics, it is a wild animal I took control of, literally.


So I like to act like a giant lion should, chomp!


Pulled out my axe (somehow) and chopped them up.


Grab a hunk of tasty dwarf... and lick it, bummer.


Pull up gm-editor on it, see the dead_dwarf=true flag?


This is what happens when you set it to false. Yum!


I could also use an interaction to remove [CAN_LEARN] beforehand.

I'm not focusing on butchering, I'm focusing on the behavior where we could eat anything, I could have taken a dwarf adventurer from that town and killed then eaten that dwarf there even if I had known them my whole life, back in 40.24. I know, I've done this before. I could have taken control of someone's kid, cut their arm off, and eaten it in front of them back in 40.24. I know, I've done this before.

Having a dwarf butcher a kill and having them eat that kill are different things.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2016, 09:51:58 pm »

Well then.
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Max™

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2016, 10:02:38 pm »

Yeah, figured posting more screenshots and whatnot in there would be far too annoying, even for me.

Incidentally, adding [GRASP] to the smaller back teeth of the generic teeth with large eye teeth body plan means big cats can strangle kill prey, though the more elegant solution I found was a reaction that targets corpses and produces a little stack of meat to represent "tearing a chunk off" since hauling around a weapon strapped to a giant cat so they can eat was annoying. Lots of fun though!
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2016, 04:27:28 am »

I accept full responsibility for being the catalyst for the derail but we got a good amount of research done.

My Previous points.


Just to point out, what source name (language) was the historic lion? And where was the last time it rampaged?

From my research as soon as animals get historic names from killing sentients it negatively affects their behaviour, and i believe the status update brings them into the entity. I have only ever witnesseed historical named creatures getting new name and behaving differently in fortress mode however (Wild historically named creatures who claim that title on site become passive to dwarves but animals will totally start going bananas with anxiety, lash out and kill the animal)

Try a fresh un-named creature from the wild for a second case subject. Otherwise thats interesting to see that you finally got it working somewhat with dead_dwarf=true, and the lion appears to have gotten its name from elsewhere (but its still a worthwhile check to see why they have the name)

In all likelyhood if your lion isn't affiliated with a civ then it got it from killing hunters going after its [LARGE_PREDATOR] class so that's fine and keeps it abstract.


I've done my own little bit of DFhackery and this is what i found. Im not going to comment on the code because i've been told off multiple times for talking about it "wrong", but here you can see a clear links to the unit 32 vectors in force from the GM editor over a tame troll (semi sapient) in some strange areas. Her first name is set by me to be Scamps though for the purposes of demonstration she is nicknamed forcefully over GM editor to pick over anything of relevance i find within the deviant semi-intelligents.

This is GM-editor 43.05 by the way with the same modded raws for goblin civ and minor tweaks that shouldn't hopefully infringe but also allow us to properly try the dead_dwarf.


There's more to come but im just collating more data. In summary, the DF.soul and current soul are stacking on top of each other and are super wonky. Throwing out Putnam's distressed last comment thoroughly out of the window about only current_soul being relevant. Given that all the souls are identical and all impact on the unit

I have checked and double checked, they are identical to one another but are different entries (as referenced from the string lines at the top) that is unless out of myself mistaking the values, something else is infringing but those values from df soul(s) are in effect, whatever was meant to be in current soul to be different isn't taking place and its just a carbon copy of the core soul.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 10:32:46 am by FantasticDorf »
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Putnam

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2016, 07:17:07 pm »

There's more to come but im just collating more data. In summary, the DF.soul and current soul are stacking on top of each other and are super wonky. Throwing out Putnam's distressed last comment thoroughly out of the window about only current_soul being relevant. Given that all the souls are identical and all impact on the unit
I have checked and double checked, they are identical to one another but are different entries (as referenced from the string lines at the top) that is unless out of myself mistaking the values, something else is infringing but those values from df soul(s) are in effect, whatever was meant to be in current soul to be different isn't taking place and its just a carbon copy of the core soul.

You are mistaking, both are a pointer to the same thing. Check and you'll find that they're both the same unit_soul, in this case being the soul at offset 00000055ACA1BE20. current_soul is the only one used by the game and nothing in your post evidences otherwise.

I know all of this because I have personally used the souls vector in mods--mostly for possession, but also for data keeping when I fuse two units together in Sparking, where I make a new soul using the two existing ones then put both the old ones into the souls vector, where they do nothing.

I also use the unit_soul structure extensively for a huge variety of purposes--I wrote add-thought, remove-stress and (mostly) skill-change, all of which delve pretty deep into soul stuff. I have a huge amount of experience in souls.

EDIT: Also, there are only two souls-related things in unit.status... don't see where you're seeing a third one, you didn't actually say.

Also, it's not naming causing this issue, it's a historical figure being created, which also causes naming.

What I'm basically trying to say is that we understand what the stuff in gm-editor does--they are named by DFHack, not by Toady.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 07:29:16 pm by Putnam »
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Max™

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2016, 10:15:29 pm »

From my research as soon as animals get historic names from killing sentients it negatively affects their behaviour, and i believe the status update brings them into the entity. I have only ever witnesseed historical named creatures getting new name and behaving differently in fortress mode however (Wild historically named creatures who claim that title on site become passive to dwarves but animals will totally start going bananas with anxiety, lash out and kill the animal)

Try a fresh un-named creature from the wild for a second case subject. Otherwise thats interesting to see that you finally got it working somewhat with dead_dwarf=true, and the lion appears to have gotten its name from elsewhere (but its still a worthwhile check to see why they have the name)

In all likelyhood if your lion isn't affiliated with a civ then it got it from killing hunters going after its [LARGE_PREDATOR] class so that's fine and keeps it abstract.
No, I had to set dead_dwarf=false to eat it.

The lion had no entities, just known as an enemy:


To prove my point further, took control of a random wild monitor lizard, killed someone, dfhacked an axe and used the grasp teeth to pick it up and butcher the dwarf, grabbed a hunk to eat it:


Toggled dead_dwarf to false on the hunk of meat:


Delicious:


Here's the legends entry, I got the name from killing that dwarf:


The monitor has no entity links at all:


This is a wild carnivorous animal with no ethics or entity or anything, taken from literally the middle of nowhere, no civilization within multiple world tiles, it's first interaction was with a dwarf I came across in a hamlet and bit to death, it was unable to eat that kill, there is no reason why it shouldn't be able to eat it.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 07:13:50 am »

There's more to come but im just collating more data. In summary, the DF.soul and current soul are stacking on top of each other and are super wonky. Throwing out Putnam's distressed last comment thoroughly out of the window about only current_soul being relevant. Given that all the souls are identical and all impact on the unit
I have checked and double checked, they are identical to one another but are different entries (as referenced from the string lines at the top) that is unless out of myself mistaking the values, something else is infringing but those values from df soul(s) are in effect, whatever was meant to be in current soul to be different isn't taking place and its just a carbon copy of the core soul.

You are mistaking, both are a pointer to the same thing. Check and you'll find that they're both the same unit_soul, in this case being the soul at offset 00000055ACA1BE20. current_soul is the only one used by the game and nothing in your post evidences otherwise.

I know all of this because I have personally used the souls vector in mods--mostly for possession, but also for data keeping when I fuse two units together in Sparking, where I make a new soul using the two existing ones then put both the old ones into the souls vector, where they do nothing.

I also use the unit_soul structure extensively for a huge variety of purposes--I wrote add-thought, remove-stress and (mostly) skill-change, all of which delve pretty deep into soul stuff. I have a huge amount of experience in souls.

EDIT: Also, there are only two souls-related things in unit.status... don't see where you're seeing a third one, you didn't actually say.

Also, it's not naming causing this issue, it's a historical figure being created, which also causes naming.

Forgive perhaps a ignorant question, but why would 3 fields (the overview, basically the entry level not contained within a soul screen that handles some of the same things like ID, race name and gender etc) and two seperate fields of similar (souls) when only current_soul would suffice?

This is the experimental alpha 43.05, if your modding is delving in at a earlier point then your expertise with using souls might be more applicable (your response implies that the current souls are individual to units hence why there's any value to merging them)

Nickname a animal in souls & the data is carried to current_soul but the same name isn't actually carried over the the name that you gave it in the first screen. Changing any of those values has no effect on the animal but are carried over to current soul so what's the point if (souls) is MEANT to be copying over data but for some reason has all these additional values that don't actually change anything when they could be purged and kept strictly as (souls = datum defining  current soul = in use)

Unless there is a very specific function of having the additional data on souls, you could well just remove them off that screen because they are already present elsewhere.

3 sets of name, and race & gender change i've tried with absolutely no effect in changing the existing pre-set values. The only things really exclusive to those fields are the personality factors which if they are being copied from souls doesn't seem to be functioning properly in defining the creatures own soul any differently to a archetype in (souls) (as evidenced by a universal need to drink alcohol/pray/socialise conversely affecting everything)

Though this beak dog im using right now doesn't have additional personal values or whatever (no dreams, no personal values), and i've changed and failed to get meaningful effect with value changing to overtake the third (the main GM screen on entry with the units actual values), it DOES have personality facets (though no values or dreams) to affect behaviours that could trigger.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On my save as evidenced by the dead & fleeing troggs who were significantly more skittish divisively compared to the beak dog who had some goblin civ unique personality facets like [ALTRUISM] and a above average (50+) bravery, the troggs who fled were below that field of bravery, and broke into running from the source of their attacker instead of fighting like the other personality faceted troggs either vengeful or brave to fight.

The troggs also have exclusively dwarven site ethics (which was the settled site type, in comparison to the beak dog's EVIL entity settling site)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)



I've seen animals express anxiety and terror through observation (all affected by personality facets afflicted through being affected by entity sites) and this validates, as this was taken off my troglodytes from my save here (remember to get a blank DF.exe and apply the raws in the save) at the time from running away which is paused on my save.

> http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12543

And you can run it off DFhack 43.05 here to look and investigate for yourselves.
> http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12504

Well Max, its good that we dispelled any doubt about the credibility or associations to entities contaminating the data, i was aware of the process of clearing the corpses tags taking place but a little shifty about the avatar you were using.



Important distinction, "Scamps" the test troll was a EMBARKED troll, whereas by manipulating local wild-animal intelligents, they have values of their own similar to scamps but no civ affilated dreams because they weren't generated INSIDE the civ.

Additional tidbits of info show that because 'Millbuilding' is too aggressive in assigning as a idle area after the wagon, it is virtually inescapable (for everytime the unit clears after completing a job or action or is set a less aggressive forced routine it will return to mill-building when idle) and you can show this by assigning units into another aggressive idle type [CLAIM SITE] to aggressively become [OWNER] which is only dispelled (and the unit accepted as recognised peasantry via 102) when they rally around the wagon or 'Millbuilding'



I have mentioned this in my revision for the bug report note i left on the confirmed 0000797: Animals/pets repeatedly try to find path through pet-locked/"tightly closed" doors, causing lag


The behaviour in peasantry (via profession 102, which is enabled automatically on all non-tasked sentients but carries over to semi sapients, and also allows them to be assigned jobs & military positions and population) & having dreams and emotions equal to a intelligent being applies very heavily to the EVIL faction's use of domesticated trolls (since they eat trolls as livestock and production, and also have trolls working non officially, hence the population imbalance in towers which are the only dark areas with default worldgen access to trolls by being a cavern deep from a death spiral of goblins & trolls eating trolls and via infinite [DOMESTIC] exploding population & beak dogs to compensate) described here 0007526: Dark towers contain thousands of goblins and trolls, causing lag
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 10:17:50 am by FantasticDorf »
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Putnam

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 09:04:45 pm »

Forgive perhaps a ignorant question, but why would 3 fields (the overview, basically the entry level not contained within a soul screen that handles some of the same things like ID, race name and gender etc) and two seperate fields of similar (souls) when only current_soul would suffice?

The overview is simply not soul info and is a separate thing entirely.

current_soul is to store current soul. There's a bevy of non-redundant info and any redundant info has a good reason to be there, that being...

souls can be used for possession, not just in modding but for the future magic system. An individual being possessed by evil spirits would obviously have multiple souls which will switch possession of the body, for example, and the way DF is right now is perfectly set up for this.

This is the experimental alpha 43.05, if your modding is delving in at a earlier point then your expertise with using souls might be more applicable (your response implies that the current souls are individual to units hence why there's any value to merging them)

I keep up on updates to the soul object. It looks almost exactly as it has since 0.40.14, except for the new needs, which were added in 0.42.01 and I also have been keeping up on. I continue to mod to this day. Nothing much has changed in souls since 0.42.01.

Nickname a animal in souls & the data is carried to current_soul but the same name isn't actually carried over the the name that you gave it in the first screen. Changing any of those values has no effect on the animal but are carried over to current soul so what's the point if (souls) is MEANT to be copying over data but for some reason has all these additional values that don't actually change anything when they could be purged and kept strictly as (souls = datum defining  current soul = in use)

Again, souls is not currently used, only contains current_soul, and has a planned future use. Souls is not meant to be copying over data, current_soul keeps all the nickname stuff around. Souls is just a container for multiple souls, which is not in any way, shape or form used at all by the game ever as of 0.43.05 and should be completely ignored.

Unless there is a very specific function of having the additional data on souls, you could well just remove them off that screen because they are already present elsewhere.

There is no additional data. Souls only contains current_soul, it's literally the same object, I'm going to stop because I'm basically going to be reiterating the most basic parts of how C++ programming works over and over. I invite you to look at this article to understand what exactly I mean by "souls[0] and current_soul are the same"; in short, I mean they are literally the same thing, the same way you could say that the owner of my computer and my computer are literally the same person.

EDIT: Actually, I'll try to clear up some other misunderstandings I'm seeing:

1. Every living creature has a unique, separate soul.
2. All souls always have personality facets and this is intentional.
3. Embarked, tame creatures having your civilization is intentional.
4. Values (family etc.) are separate from facets (HATE_PROPENSITY etc.), stored differently and will take the parent civ's by default, which is intentional.
5. Professions are not the cause of any behavior and are merely ways to organize the unit screen--your problem lies elsewhere.

I am not saying your problem doesn't exist, btw, I'm just saying you're barking up the wrong tree.

In fact, let me tell you what the exact tree is.

Civilization members are always counted as citizens and thus always counted as sapient.

This is the entire problem. There is nothing more to it than that. You're overcomplicating things a lot.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 09:13:09 pm by Putnam »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2016, 03:27:57 am »

But the emphasis of putting that work in progress in action now and therefore breaking where its not relevant because the personality of the (souls) is already displacing the game units by giving them additional values like being possessed by the archetype soul assigned to units by CIV and the sites that they are settled (for example adopting and following ethics etc 0010059: Wild site animals have the same morale ethics [Kill_Enemy Neutral] as entity units if in the same local settled area)

Pretty clearly evidenced by that embarked pet troll having its own dreams as per being directly inside the civ, compared to a random natural animal person with exactly the same range of values just because they are part of the site population but no dreams as per not having that civ interaction.

The current soul at the moment other than personality within the civ fields means diddly squat for actual functionality, defending it for future code is pointless when Toady could have kept it on a prototype for the actual magic release or feature when it was being used and put personality in abstractly in a better defined less buggy field.

> I understand the reason why but couldn't toady just wait to give it a trigger (such as a possessed mood or a specific posession magical skill/interaction situationally at the time like the emotion system) instead of severely shoehorning it to push the functionality of the personality system?

But Putnam, though its not straightfoward to really exactly prove the logic holds up, you CAN assign semi-sapients and animals to the (NONE) profession and they actually revert to standard UI and same functionality as the pre-bug state because its a completely superfluous way of doing it when they are commited to the civ via civ identity & taming state anyway. In friendly tame semi-sapients they will adopt a profession they shouldn't have access to (peasant because of hauling labours) as well as the relevant labour and profession UI which is redundant to them having non malleable skills to set.

> Importing trolls from site population via [PET] causes them to have random assigned professions and skills because they have a peasant tag from within the civ generated for them via allocation, in the same way it sets skills and manages citizens.

> I've already mentioned this before but there is only 1 class of true unit animal and the raws from that population type feed back into entities without apparent code for flag discrimination because normally given the circumstances everything else would be non-considered as sapient. As you mention if everything is being made sentient then that has potential implications, especially in the case that there isn't a failsafe of defining a additional attribute to link it to he intelligent flag only within those raws. All taken for granted for working.

> As you can evidence practically by turning wild creatures/creature-people by simultaneously domesticating them & setting a civ ID, as soon as they are set to the wagon or a meeting area they instantly switch to a peasantry state for both military and civilian exploits and aggressively stick to that idle routine.

> In which case it may be related to bugs within sites for staying within map designed meeting areas (such as where trolls & goblins frequent under dark pits around the namesake in the large rooms) converting or otherwise affecting rooms as per demands by the tavern & temple system to get people to commit to staying in areas. As to say every time a animal interacts and gets caught up with the 'milling building' behaviour it is set to peasantry.


Taken  from a beak dog on goblin site as livestock, name, idle and peasantry checks out with what im saying. Idle area is keeping it static therefore it is always engrossed in the peasantry producing idle behavior. Same data as the embarked and idle area engaged beak dogs from my goblin faction embark.


Same with a random milling troll, peasantry, identical to "Scamps the Embark Troll" also has a dreams and was sourced from within the entity.


Finally after hearing my laptop wheeze to near death under the crushing FPS of just standing inside a dark fortress i found who i was looking for, a Troll with a generated job assigned to them when the site reads that they are a peasant intelligent and non animal class.

Spoiler: Gelder Troll Images (click to show/hide)


Its natural to read more into it but i do think this has applications to the wider scope where the logic applies, I've already proved or alternatively established that effects are happening on a site level so my overcomplication is justifiable given the scope of the problem and how far into the systems it could reach.

> Animals for the first field 102 in military profession are listed as peasants, meaning that when they enter active service they will be recruits which holds up with the everything being treated as a sentient by site theory : 0006708: Human civilization's soldier is an Alligator Recruit.

> If all animals are counted as sentient population or at-least peasants, armies are going to be constantly busy and fizzle out focusing on sites leading to indecisiveness and ineffective warfare. Elves get picked off quickly in worldgen by megabeasts for this reason because they take animal assimilation very literally, which is methodically re-creatable by increasing the quantity of non mountain caves to give them coverage.



I do respect your input, but I was right about 'Something' going wrong in those coding areas (though not from the angles i was expecting where we are now) from the beggining as soon as i grasped the game-theory by clawing and tracing the fundamental principles in the code by a little more than just luck even with my poor grasp of what the code does (Important but also relevant when you're not really looking at the fields as much as actually looking at the content). I have to learn code in my own time but there are more immediate problems at hand than trying to teach me, suggesting based that I REQUIRE to know the code to understand what im looking at or im just getting so jumbled up equating to nothing which are both patronising but understandable stances. Im not here to lint the code clean of imperfections, but more to solve a problem, pretty much learning french by reading the pictures and picking them apart very carefully you can still get the main body of sufficient content.

Providing actual research to reinforce would be more helpful please Putnam as mostly your contribution in this thread and the FoTF has been (helpfully constructive) critism and conjecture off principles you are familiar with but never seem to question in a way that is demonstrative given the opportunity to really show your expertise and quickly dispel the discrepencies. It really seems like the sort of thing you'd go for solving in one or two quick searches with dfhack knowing what you're looking for and exactly how to use it and just get it fast-tracked to a easy resolution.

(which ironically some to most of my own points are conjecture but i seek to amend them by actually looking into it and correcting myself where needs be as that just the point of research. And i have been doing so and making good ground, some issues are harder to showcase however and you have to trust and grasp the 'logic' behind the fault)



Important update on dead_dwarf research. I have found a anomaly in which i have harvested a non dead_dwarf flagged corpse of a goblin on a dark tower site, that fell down the item depot pits dropping atleast 10+ layers and must have because they were spawned for the overworld but died in a entirely different feature setting of the caverns by falling through the cracks or otherwise fighting, dodging and falling.

Upon finding it by navigating my goblin adventurer down to the caverns in search of where my site trolls might be gathering to investigate them, i found a plucky "peasant corpse" with still a little meat on the bone. I butchered him after scanning with gm-editor to find his dead_dwarf flag already false, so i took and ate a little meat off him.

So it seems that if the unit dies outside of the site they were spawned from the dead_dwarf doesn't apply unless there's something else going on we're not aware of.


Quote
1. Every living creature has a unique, separate soul.
2. All souls always have personality facets and this is intentional.
3. Embarked, tame creatures having your civilization is intentional.
4. Values (family etc.) are separate from facets (HATE_PROPENSITY etc.), stored differently and will take the parent civ's by default, which is intentional.
5. Professions are not the cause of any behavior and are merely ways to organize the unit screen--your problem lies elsewhere.

1. understood, that clears things up, pretty obvious from gm anyway and i kind of didn't need telling such a trivial fact.
2. Yes i am aware but the are all blanketed over in a way that isn't subjective to the creature. (No-drink/no eats craving food etc) its sloppyily executed and perhaps a little rushed for trying to get it on all creatures globally.
3. That wasn't my point, but yes it wouldn't make sense, i already know that, but thats not what im trying to point out if you're following at all, my point is that these are affecting tame animals WITHIN the civ, and on sites. Which when mixed with site behaviours is getting screwy.
4. I know, I've already double checked that in my own examples with looking at the trolls from within and creatures outside having values
5. Not exactly helpful attitude, help us prove or disprove the method if you are sure please.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 02:28:31 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Max™

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2016, 06:09:02 am »

All of the world-gen spawned bodies in tombs, troll pits, and lairs/shrines are dead_dwarf=false and totally edible, I thought I mentioned that at some point but I probably forgot.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 09:55:05 am »

All of the world-gen spawned bodies in tombs, troll pits, and lairs/shrines are dead_dwarf=false and totally edible, I thought I mentioned that at some point but I probably forgot.

Yeah. There was a bit of back and forth arguement, but this is in regards to the goblin falling through on generation between 1 z level and dying out of place in another. I guess if you physically move a dead historical ID unit to a tomb they are edible or the corpses in there don't generate ID for them in the first place unless its a specific case. (or they are just generic corpses spawned for that purpose)

Troll pits are technically connected to the same site so might be that whatever site entity native to the top that dies down there is subject to different rules if still on the same site (if that makes sense but really all angles need investigation). Falling dead through a crack at your site unless it was a placed body by map editor neither qualifies as a troll pit or anything conclusively, on the other hand it could have just been a REALLY out of bounds troll pit corpse placed by accident there.

> 'From worldgen' should cover stuff that is placed, and might be a good place to comb for clues.


In other news, peasantry (and having peasantry being forced via SUPER AGGRESSIVE millbuilding routines) does not affect the outcome of dead_dwarf=true as i have tried with embarked trolls after clearing their millbuilding routine with something else (mauradermilling wild animal walking) which is a alternative by forcing in GM and clearing their peasantry manually in gm too.



However i will try a little bit more after i've cleared the refuse away with different types of idling (as setting nothing reverts back to the wagon/last issued building which they crave even with no sites) - And the result so far isn't particularly anything different.

Another interesting thing is that world gen goods are obviously carrying the world gen flag, but sites butchered on site from intelligents directly reference the intelligent being as its owner of the bp products, such as carrying foward a nickname rather than casting it out when they die, its never dropped.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:33:52 am by FantasticDorf »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2017, 06:08:49 pm »

Doublepost, after a long absence but i can't believe i forgot that when trolls are directly slaughtered, they immediately convert to a dead_dwarf state confirming the interaction happens immediately on death no matter what the damage. I also checked more fields & disproved myself, when queried the creature is indeed =dead & appropriately slaughtered, everything i thought was going wrong with death states seemed to not be true.

Adding the field "compute health" to true, removing dead_dwarf & reverting them to a wild state (though tame=true, wasnt removed) made the skull i was experimenting on from the troll usable in fortress mode by my goblins even after i gave the creature a new personal name & identity (I named it before it was butchered and used (i) to trace the unit ID, im a little sloppy with dfhack so i couldn't try to revive them)

Max's example of the "Immortal Nish" made me think that it was heavily related to personal ID still being attached to the BP's (which to some range of bugs is still true, because the parts don't seem to properly communicate that they have been severed etc, when they demand that every single BP article is buried at once) when Nish crafts objects out of dwarf bone in a fell mood inscribed with his own personal ID name (which might be what dead_dwarf is doing)

Recalculating the health though might have amended it i like to think if the unit stops checking other than the 'dead_dwarf=true' being amended.

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Putnam

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2017, 06:42:13 pm »

dead_dwarf is just a boolean flag, it's true or false, it doesn't do anything except tell you if it's true or false, it's probably checked by some function we can't find anywhere to determine if a creature is butcherable

Max™

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2017, 09:43:48 pm »

They're actually butcherable in adventure mode still, you just can't use the materials for crafting/food until dead_dwarf is toggled off (or [CAN_LEARN] is removed before death, don't forget that) and yeah, still not sure exactly where that is determined, but the behavior seems similar to the stuff you get when you try to eat a plant as a carnivore, licking instead of saying it's disgusting, which is interesting at least.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Eating Sapients FotF derail.
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2017, 03:14:46 am »

Chaosvolt recently touched on this again over the bug-tracker by just doing a comparison on a prior version in arena mode  - which i've shown here in relation to . Like my personal hypothesis of a BP correlation, there is a difference between personal & impersonal bones connected to BP, as you can show in Nish's bones bearing ID and my own secondary example of a successfully slaughtered troll bearing a name having personal bones.

> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171#c36172

> Because all materials off a creature (fat/meat) is converted from BP equivalents, again if the system is being over-possessive through unknown functions to activate dead_dwarf (though it does not require the dwarf to be dead because stray loose teeth will still remain in possession while alive & not gathered)

> It is a overlapping system issue with something to do with world activated modes (fortress/adventure) because Arena mode does not have issues present for a number of different reasons

> Zombies are butcherable and seem to dispel the BP/personal ID issues but also yield sometimes inedible meat (zombie goblins for instance can be butchered because they are recognised as a 'seperate class of sentient other than ourselves' but are inedible due to no ethics loophole.)
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