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Author Topic: Thoughts on Guilds/Sects  (Read 625 times)

AceSV

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Thoughts on Guilds/Sects
« on: November 16, 2016, 12:49:01 pm »

I was looking over the Development page and I was intrigued by the idea of Sects/Guilds, mostly Guilds, and I wanted to add my thoughts. 

My understanding of the guild system is that if your fortress has a decent number of dwarves that have a certain skill level at a certain profession, they will form a guild and coordinate with each other.  Let's say for example, that the profession in question is Mining, the certain skill level is Legendary 1, and the decent number is 3.  So once your Fortress reaches a level where it has at least 3 Legendary 1 Miners, they will form a Mining Guild.  Different professions like Planters might have different requirements, like needing more members with lower skill levels. 

I mainly imagine the guilds in an adversarial role, something to give the player more to do and have more Fun.  The player has to appease the guild members or bribe the guild leader in order to assure their cooperation. 

Guilds could make demands on the player and go on strikes if their demands are not met.  For example, the Mining Guild might demand a cabinet for all guild members, and refuse to do any mining jobs until their demands are met.  The player might be able to bribe or threaten the guild leader into submission if they make demands that are unreasonable.  How to do that would be tricky since there's not really a way to interact with an individual dwarf.  One thought is that you might be presented with two demands, one that would appease the guild and one that would bribe the leader, for example, the Mining guild might demand a cabinet and chest for every member of the guild, or a tin cabinet and tin chest to bribe the leader (imagining in this case that tin is the leader's favorite metal)  Or, it might be more Fun to arrange mysterious accidents or send in the Captain of the Guard to arrest dwarves that are striking.  Ideally this would "scare" the dwarves into submission, with sufficiently brave dwarves unaffected.  Besides striking, guilds might simply reduce output based on quotas, like carpenters make no more than 5 items a week, until their demands are met.  Quotas might also be a means of appeasement, like if working constantly makes dwarves unhappy, making quotas could allow them to visit the tavern and temple. 

Seems to me that the guilds should be able to elect their own leader, like the mayor, without player involvement.  I would imagine that the election would be based on interpersonal skills, like the mayor, but guilds might also consider skill level at the profession or physical traits that improve the potential at the profession.  So for example, the Mining Guild might elect a Legendary 5 miner with weak interpersonal skills over a Legendary 2 miner with stronger interpersonal skills. 

Guilds might be able to demand a Guild Hall meeting area, or take over an existing meeting area for themselves if the player does not provide them with one.  Guilds might demand quality improvements to their guild hall, like more tables, more space, higher value, or demand entertainers or drink servers.  Non-guild dwarves that damage a guild hall, or even enter one, might earn the wrath of the guild. 

Another thought is that the guild not only deals with the player, but with other dwarves.  For example, if the Mining Guild goes on strike, it might not be up to the player to interact with the guild itself, but up to the mayor and guard captain to deal with them.  If the Brewers Guild refuses to produce booze, a skilled mayor might be able to convince them to stop the strike, or a particularly intimidating guard captain might be able to threaten them back into action. 

As suggested on the development page, dwarves that get into fights or arguments with a single guild member, could earn the wrath of the entire guild.  There could be special anger triggers too, like the Weaver Guild will get angry with a tantrumming dwarf that knocks down a loom, or the Carpenter Guild might seek vengeance against a dwarf that knocks down a Masterwork bed produced by one of the guild members or even if your mining guild is on strike and you send a peasant to do mining work, the guild might get angry at the peasant.  Anger need not lead to violence, a dwarf that vomits on a masterwork might simply be forced to clean it up, or an offending dwarf might simply be humiliated by the guild stealing their clothing, or the guild might steal personal possessions from the offending dwarf's room, or if a loom was knocked over by a dwarf in the Carpenter Guild, the weaver guild might knock over a carpentry workshop.  I imagine that the nature of the punishment might be based on the guild leader or offended dwarf's personality, like a violent dwarf would be more prone to beating up offenders, a covetous dwarf might be more prone to steal, a generous dwarf might not punish anyone at all.  It would also make sense for dwarves to develop a good reputation with the guild.  For example, an offense against the spouse or child of the Mining Guild could also incur the wrath of the guild, or the guild could give them special permission to enter their guild hall or first pick of masterworks or whatever. 

Since the artifact expansion will happen next, it would also be interesting to imagine some artifact interaction for guilds.  A guild that produces an artifact might be able to lay claim to it, or they might demand that the artifact be placed in their Guild Hall or in one of their quarters. 

The idea of guilds seems a lot like the traveling performance troupes, so it might be interesting for an entire Guild to try and immigrate to your fortress all at once. 

There could also be rival guilds that cover the same profession.  If someone gets kicked out of a guild for inappropriate behavior or arguing with the leader, they might be able to start a separate guild.  Or if you already have a guild, a foreign guild could immigrate to your fortress and now you've got two of them.  This could be advantageous to the player, if one guild goes on strike, the other guild might still be able to work. 
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AceSV

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Re: Thoughts on Guilds/Sects
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2016, 01:18:49 pm »

Religious Sects seem like they would be a different sort of beast to work with. 

For one thing, sect organization would be a bit more artificial, since they cannot organize themselves by who is the best at mining or brewing or whatever.  Sects might have some sort of hierarchy, like acolytes at the bottom and high priests at the top.  Dwarves might advance in the sect by passing some sort of ritual test. 

The polytheistic nature of Dwarf Fortress could make it a bit odd.  Most dwarves have affiliations to multiple gods, so assuming that a sect is focused on the belief in one particular god, would the sect try to stop its members from worshiping other gods or would it only bring in members who only worshiped the one god in the first place?  On the other hand, why assume that a sect is focused on a single god?  Maybe the sect honors only female gods or only male gods, or only the Sun and Moon god, or maybe there's just an anti Mountain God sect where you can believe anything you want except in the Mountain God.  Or it could be a matter of scriptural interpretation or a matter of rituals that divides the sects, like one sect believes in animal sacrifice, the other does not, or one sect allows females to be priests and the other does not, or one allows dancing and the other does not, or one sect doesn't like homosexuality and the other sect is okay with it. 

Whereas guilds make sense as completely local institutions, it would make a little more sense for religious sects to exist outside of the player fortress.  This could mean that a particularly strong sect presence could attract pilgrims from across the land or a weak standing could attract missionaries.  There could also be missionaries from other civilizations, like an elven priest come to teach dwarves the way of Nature. 

Incurring the wrath of sects would probably not be so focused on personal offenses, but offenses against the gods or beliefs of the sect.  For example, getting into a brawl with an acolyte might be no big deal, but arguing with the high priest could result in an assassination.  A sect that is against the worship of a particular god might target worshipers of that god, or any temples built to that god, or even statues or engravings of the god.  A sect that doesn't allow dancing might target professional dancers or boycott taverns or temples with dancers assigned to them.  Sects might also be anti-science and target scholars who practice specific fields of science. 

Likewise, demands of sects would be for improvements to temples, number of temples, number of religious statues or engravings. 

If a sect gets out of hand, the player might be able to declare it to be illegal and the Captain of the Guard will beat down or lock up anyone practicing it. 

Sects might be able to make items in temples into artifacts, similar to the way warriors can name a weapon or shield.  Sects might also be able to dedicate or sacrifice artifacts and masterworks to their deity. 

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AceSV

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Re: Thoughts on Guilds/Sects
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2016, 01:35:05 pm »

Besides professional guilds and religious sects, it might be interesting to have Warrior Guilds, Thief Guilds, Assassin Guilds, Alchemy Guilds and the like running around as well. 

Warrior Guilds could be dwarves that practice weapons but aren't signed up for any squadron.  They might practice a particular weapon, like a Sword Guild or Hammer Guild, and even devote themselves to discovering secret techniques, like a kung-fu monk.  Warrior Guilds might ignore civilian warnings during invasions and try to fight off invaders themselves, or go hunting for trolls and cave ogres to increase their fame.  Visiting warriors might try to join your local Warrior Guilds instead of the offical squadrons. 

Thief Guilds might try to amass all the fortress' wealth into their own guild hall or personal quarters, or even make themselves a secret hideout that the player can't see until a non-thief dwarf enters it.  Thief guilds could pick-pocket visitors and caravans, or depart on missions to steal foreign artifacts. 

Players might be able to employ Assassin Guilds to eliminate pesky nobles or striking guild leaders by picking a dwarf for a list and leaving the payment in the guild's meeting hall.  Assassins might also be able to handle stray trolls or take on enemy generals or necromancers, perhaps needing the help of a distraction. 

Alchemy Guilds or Scientific Guilds would probably rely on game mechanics that don't exist yet.  Maybe they would make inventions or special potions or even artifacts of science.  Could also amount to something like a group of Geologists who all get together and trade notes and take revenge on carpenters that annoy them. 

As with performance troupes, you might occasionally get an entire group of one of these types arriving at your fortress all at once. 
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rhavviepoodle

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Re: Thoughts on Guilds/Sects
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 12:26:49 pm »

The polytheistic nature of Dwarf Fortress could make it a bit odd.  Most dwarves have affiliations to multiple gods, so assuming that a sect is focused on the belief in one particular god, would the sect try to stop its members from worshiping other gods or would it only bring in members who only worshiped the one god in the first place?  On the other hand, why assume that a sect is focused on a single god?  Maybe the sect honors only female gods or only male gods, or only the Sun and Moon god, or maybe there's just an anti Mountain God sect where you can believe anything you want except in the Mountain God.  Or it could be a matter of scriptural interpretation or a matter of rituals that divides the sects, like one sect believes in animal sacrifice, the other does not, or one sect allows females to be priests and the other does not, or one allows dancing and the other does not, or one sect doesn't like homosexuality and the other sect is okay with it.

I realize that there are a few social issues Toady probably won't include into this game because he simply won't, but I do think that being bigoted is in fact very realistic and a human dwarven development of society.

The ideas you've got for thieves' guilds, warrior guilds, and assassin guilds sound a little bit Elder Scrollsy, but I definitely like a few of the idea of labor guilds and such. I feel like there might should be some type of cap on them, because too much would just get convoluted and too micro-intensive. Perhaps only a handful of guilds fill a power-vacuum in a fort, based more or less on the fort's legacy, so to speak.

In my head, I sort of envision these labors to fall into three broad categories. The first category is stuff that your fort actively does. Strip mining a layer of granite in order to dig out all of its tetrahedrite and making 80% of your furniture out of copper, for example. You can definitely make a case that guilds can and ought to pop up among these particular labors, as these are arguably the cases in which the spirit of guilds would be made.

The second category is more passive infrastructure building, by and large enabled by the recent managerial overhauls and conditional repeating conditions that have been added. A magma kiln might be set to fire more large clay pots as previous ones are used, but that's not nearly as much as "fort-defining" as active labors your dwarves do. Other examples include automated milling, general plant processing, and brewing. Since these labors can be effectively automated, it's actually really quite easy to end up with legendary millers or the like, or a multitude of generalist farmers. You could make a case that this passive stuff is an equally important part of your fort's economic footprint and that these can and ought to end up producing guilds just like more active labors. Since there's so many of these labors, however, I worry it could become easy to get bogged down by a bunch of tiny insignificant guilds that really don't end up contributing much to gameplay in the grand scheme of things.

The third category that comes to mind is non-labors that end up (by chance moods, for example) with a multitude of legendary dwarves residing in your fort. It's possible that a multitude of glassmakers move to your fort and via strange mood become legendary. If you have no access to sand but from trade, I myself would be somewhat frustrated by this. If your most recent glacier embark ends up having fire clay from irrigated stone tiles, why would you use precious trees for infrastructure building at all? And yet on my most recent glacier embark I've had three dwarves proc moods and become legendary. Having a wood crafter's guild when I literally never use wood crafting actively would practically be an insult. It would definitely add to the Fun! we have, but it's not exactly what I would call intuitive.

Currently we can find out from visitors that certain forts (and their locations) have reputations. What if there was really only room for one or two guilds based on the reputation and legacy of the fort in question? And if one of the labors is phased out, another guild might arise to fill the vacuum. Bigger, more metropolitan forts might be able to carry more guilds than small ones. Given how many total labors there are in Dwarf Fortress, building a guild hall for every single one would definitely be overkill.
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Re: Thoughts on Guilds/Sects
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2016, 12:51:13 pm »

A guild would only make sense with a functioning economy and creation of new guilds and Expansion of old should be based on demand and supply. 

So in a world with much war it would make sense to See strong weaponsmith guilds.
much like a Brand each guild would print its sigil on every item
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