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[Weizen1988]

(Sorry to post this two places, but I realized afterwards that the other forum i posted it under hasnt seen any posts since months ago it looked like.)

From the wiki http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Archery_target

If you have a room underneath your archery range, you can channel the area behind the target to save bolts (falling bolts don't break), but if you completely channel targets out, recruits will stop training as they require a straight walkable path to the target. A floor grate will NOT work.

Could someone explain this? Possibly with a picture? Bolts do not continue beyond the target, channeling behind it is useless, bolts do not go there they hit the target and make a pile on the ground in front of it. I channeled out behind them, and all it got me was an ugly room that didnt match my hallways one floor below, it did absolutely nothing. Thought "maybe whoever posted that got it backwards" so I refloored my channel, then channeled infront of it, all that did was stop function.

[Libash_Thunderhead]

This only works when the bolts miss the target.  So channel out the left and right side behind the target.
It's not a big deal, because when they have considerable high skill level, most of the bolts still break. And you have more than enough bones to create training bolts, just kill more of those wild animals.

[Weizen1988]

This only works when the bolts miss the target.  So channel out the left and right side behind the target.
It's not a big deal, because when they have considerable high skill level, most of the bolts still break. And you have more than enough bones to create training bolts, just kill more of those wild animals.

Ok, so its just misleading wording? The phrase "behind" without any further modifiers is generally meant to refer to things directly behind something, not to the sides Id read some things about how you only ever want to give them one kind of bolts or it causes some kind of problems, and I didnt want them wasting all of these iron bolts i made, or find them suddenly refusing to fight because "but these bolts are our training bolts, so rather than shoot we will A, charge and die, or B, wander off to swap out bolts, leaving the other soldiers to die without ranged support. I take it that is less of a problem than its made to sound?

[Starver]

I used to do this a lot, and it always used to work (no currently active current version that I can test with, so if it has changed I don't know about it).  Bolts that hit a target (from proficient or 'lucky enough' range-users) become unusable bolt-detritus in the floor tile(s) immediately before the target. A channelled back (and sides!) of the target means that bolts that miss would drop to the level below.

My target-room plans (decided in advance to be two-level constructions, so that there were no hallways below other than the 'drop zone') tended to be comb-like.  Long fingers of floor led out (either as undug/rewalled block-tops from the Z-1 or long spurs of unchannelled/(re)floored constructions over a wide open Z-1) from the standing position, as far back as an archery range can be defined, at the corridor access end. Separating each comb-tooth, a single channelled/non-floored gap between the next comb-tooth (or range wall at the extreme sides) and behind the target a single channel before the 'back wall'.
Thusly:

Code: [Select]

     Z=0            Z-1
######...####  ######...####  Back-wall (both levels, although access /can/ be cut into lower level)
#           #  #=====   ===#  Back-gap, ammo stockpile(s) below awaiting missed bolts
# X X ... X #  #=====...===#  Targets (upon floors), ammo stockpiles below
# + +     + #  #=====   ===#  Floor 'tongues' leading to Targetised tongue-tips
# + + ... + #  #=====...===#
. . .     . .  . . .     . .
. . .     . .  . . .     . .  Lengthways extension
. . .     . .  . . .     . .
# + + ... + #  #=====...===#  'Tongue' roots
# > >     > #  #=<=<=   =<=#  Access between levels (useful if this is archery limit point)
##+#+#...#+##  ######...####  Access (top level, bottom level optional)
++++++   ++++  ++++++   ++++  Corridor (both levels, if wanted)
(Rotate plans to your prefered directionality.)

The ammo stockpile would perhaps be best just around the stair-footings, let haulers save the practicing archers the trip to the fall-location, where possible, but this is how I tend to do it.

Possible an I (serifed, or sideways H) 'tongue' could serve a width of firing positions, a (single, shared) path across the gap and then the equally wide width of Target positions, if it needs construction to make the floors. But as I tend to dig it out I have rarely the incentive to try anything like that.  You could then also array targets cheek-to-cheek, no gaps between, for more in a space, but as bolts fired at an angle to miss the 'straight' target but hitting a neighbouring one destroy just the same as an accurate one, 50:50 chance of hitting the back-wall¹ (except for edge ranges, where a side-wall recovery is possible) is my compromise. Double-width channels/range-gaps reduce off-target hits further, but at the cost of lateral space needed for a given range.  Triple-width gaps might as well be SideWall1, SingleChannel1, SingleTongue, SingleChannel2, SideWall2 where SideWall2 can be a SideWall1 for an adjacent range, and vice-versa.


¹ The idea is to have no-skill archers train until they're good enough to be destroying most of their ammo, rather than missing badly enough most of the time. (As I've just been ninjard about!) Then they don't need the practice to (at least as a group) be a decent force against hostile targets. 

[Weizen1988]

I used to do this a lot, and it always used to work (no currently active current version that I can test with, so if it has changed I don't know about it).  Bolts that hit a target (from proficient or 'lucky enough' range-users) become unusable bolt-detritus in the floor tile(s) immediately before the target. A channelled back (and sides!) of the target means that bolts that miss would drop to the level below.

My target-room plans (decided in advance to be two-level constructions, so that there were no hallways below other than the 'drop zone') tended to be comb-like.  Long fingers of floor led out (either as undug/rewalled block-tops from the Z-1 or long spurs of unchannelled/(re)floored constructions over a wide open Z-1) from the standing position, as far back as an archery range can be defined, at the corridor access end. Separating each comb-tooth, a single channelled/non-floored gap between the next comb-tooth (or range wall at the extreme sides) and behind the target a single channel before the 'back wall'.
Thusly:

Code: [Select]

     Z=0            Z-1
######...####  ######...####  Back-wall (both levels, although access /can/ be cut into lower level)
#           #  #=====   ===#  Back-gap, ammo stockpile(s) below awaiting missed bolts
# X X ... X #  #=====...===#  Targets (upon floors), ammo stockpiles below
# + +     + #  #=====   ===#  Floor 'tongues' leading to Targetised tongue-tips
# + + ... + #  #=====...===#
. . .     . .  . . .     . .
. . .     . .  . . .     . .  Lengthways extension
. . .     . .  . . .     . .
# + + ... + #  #=====...===#  'Tongue' roots
# > >     > #  #=<=<=   =<=#  Access between levels (useful if this is archery limit point)
##+#+#...#+##  ######...####  Access (top level, bottom level optional)
++++++   ++++  ++++++   ++++  Corridor (both levels, if wanted)
(Rotate plans to your prefered directionality.)

The ammo stockpile would perhaps be best just around the stair-footings, let haulers save the practicing archers the trip to the fall-location, where possible, but this is how I tend to do it.

Possible an I (serifed, or sideways H) 'tongue' could serve a width of firing positions, a (single, shared) path across the gap and then the equally wide width of Target positions, if it needs construction to make the floors. But as I tend to dig it out I have rarely the incentive to try anything like that.  You could then also array targets cheek-to-cheek, no gaps between, for more in a space, but as bolts fired at an angle to miss the 'straight' target but hitting a neighbouring one destroy just the same as an accurate one, 50:50 chance of hitting the back-wall¹ (except for edge ranges, where a side-wall recovery is possible) is my compromise. Double-width channels/range-gaps reduce off-target hits further, but at the cost of lateral space needed for a given range.  Triple-width gaps might as well be SideWall1, SingleChannel1, SingleTongue, SingleChannel2, SideWall2 where SideWall2 can be a SideWall1 for an adjacent range, and vice-versa.


¹ The idea is to have no-skill archers train until they're good enough to be destroying most of their ammo, rather than missing badly enough most of the time. (As I've just been ninjard about!) Then they don't need the practice to (at least as a group) be a decent force against hostile targets.

Alright, thank you, ill keep this in mind for my next archery room, I was getting frustrated because when i read "behind" i think "orthogonal", and was trying to figure out what I did wrong. I saw that some that missed hit the walls to either side of the target and broke (I hadnt channeled anything yet), thought nothing of it, but then i made a solid line of them across the room after reading that page and channeled out behind them all, only to find it did nothing. Sure wish I could just melt down and reforge the metal bolts that break, as it is I dont think i can interact with them at all, or at least dont know how.

[Libash_Thunderhead]

I usually let a squad train until they can shoot through fortifications. So I let them use the cheapest bolts.  They are useless if they can't shoot through fortifications anyway, so just keep them training until they can be sent to war.

A bit off topic, if you don't use fortifications, you can forget the targets. You can give them barracks like those melee guys. They can still gain crossbow skill although slower. If you already have skilled hunters, you can make they squad leaders so they can teach their members. Station them to kill those annoying birds like keas if you like, because bolts shooting upwards usually don't break.

[Starver]

Additional to the above floor-plans, this is how I designate their digging-out, all in one go:

Code: [Select]

   Z=0
######...####  #=leave undug
#HHHHH   HHH#  H=(d)esignate c(h)annel
#HDHDH...HDH#  D=(d)esignate (d)igging
#HDHDH   HDH#
#HDHDH...HDH#
. . .    . .
. . .    . .
. . .    . .
#HDHDH...HDH#
#HJHJH   HJH#  J=(d)esignate (j)downstairs
##D#D#...#D##
Apply priorities if wanted (first tongue/channels at 1, neighbour and next channel at 2, etc, just to get it done 'orderly') but by default the tongue-floors get dealt with as the path to them from the tongue-roots expand, and side(/back)-channelling happens as soon as access is granted.  (Alternately, do ramps as 'anti-tongues' whilst digging out the floor below, I suppose, just be sure of the alignments, or cave-ins may happen!)

Then on the level below I (du)upstair, (dd)ig out under the tongues and (dz)remove any remaIning ramps¹. Whilst there are undugout undertounges with ramps between then I don't need the stair access, but I don't really want dwarves walking along the tongues, at any time, apart from to install the targets and cosmetically smooth the tongue-tops, so it's good practice to do this before I commision any actual practicing, even from a two-over tongue-position.

And if you do the stockpile thing, removing ramps definitely helps.  (OTOH, there's not actually much use in doing that, except for obtaining rock, for underdigging the tongues.  Leave them in, if you want, save for minerals/gems you wish to specifically claim!)

It is also possible to vertically stack range-'tongues' over a single shared 'drop floor', but I've never actually done that.

(And 'broken bolts' aren't usable objects, even for dumping I'm not even sure if they get 'cleaned', even.)


¹ Be careful if you (dz) the whole area to not to (dz) the previously carved (du)pstairs...  The number of times I've made that gross error whilst trying to remove the (not necessary to remove!) firing-line-end ramps, which can actually suffice for inter-level access in leiu of the stairways.

[rhavviepoodle]

Here's another example of a crossbowman barracks:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It definitely isn't optimal, but it has been working. Basically it's a glorified barracks room with ammo stockpiles, archery targets tacked on off to the side and a spot for bolts to be caught down below. I've also got a paved road built before the targets, to hide ugly bolt detritus. From what I understand, you initially want your squad set to train using just the targets--if you assign a regular barracks to them, they effectively train as hammerdwarves instead (but like Libash has pointed out, they will eventually set up crossbow demonstrations, which should help). It may actually be good to alternate (especially once you have one or two legendary crossbowdwarves), since regular target training doesn't increase armor user or any defense skills (which is bad).

[taptap]

@OP: Shame! Shame! (For the double posting.)

Some bolts miss (range needs to be long enough to make that amount higher), if the wall they hit after missing has no floor in front, they fall down to be reused. This implies some space between archery targets for missing bolts to fly through. While you can save a substantial amount of bolts that way the recycling rate goes down when your dwarves increase their skills and hit more often.

This falling down happens before just as much as behind a target, whenever a wall, door, raised bridge or similar is hit and there is no floor in front of it. It is probably possible to increase recycling rate even by a few clever design choices while still having all benefits of a range. However, there already are better designs for every single thing this does. Recycling rate can be 100% in dedicated bolt splitters. Training can be done easier with live targets, especially if they happen to be really well trained, hard to hit or sturdy to absorb the hits.

[Starver]

Shame! Shame! (For the double posting.)

What double-posting?  If the last two before yours, one was mine, the other was not.

Better picture (having one handy, rather than having to construct a rough representation in-editor), but a little too short for my liking (mine are typically max-length for reasons you give) and side-walls and mid-channels are something I personally demand (ditto), but it's probably sufficient for the basic purpose of spamming training alone...

[Weizen1988]

Shame! Shame! (For the double posting.)

What double-posting?  If the last two before yours, one was mine, the other was not.

Better picture (having one handy, rather than having to construct a rough representation in-editor), but a little too short for my liking (mine are typically max-length for reasons you give) and side-walls and mid-channels are something I personally demand (ditto), but it's probably sufficient for the basic purpose of spamming training alone...

In the OP i said that i posted this somewhere else (on the wiki section of forum), then saw no posts since september, and figured it was likely not a place that gets much traffic, and so id never get an answer, then here. Ill probably go delete the other post about it.

[Weizen1988]

How well trained is enough to shoot through fortifications? Thats the whole idea of this squad, Ive got a hallway with fortifications I want them to hang out behind to shoot at the constant goblins and bullshit swarming my map, they are coming in groups of ~300 now, Which I cant possibly fight conventionally, so im setting up marksdwarves to kill stragglers while i work out a more permanent solution to drown or smash them to collect that sweet, sweet goblinite and whips (Which im told are absurdly powerful, something about small contact area, lot of that stuff confuses me still) and such, since this map has only iron ore, and even that limited (and a boatload of cotton candy spires ive just discovered, no way in hell im touching that until i know more about avoiding clowns and preventing medicaldwarves from suturing with it though, im afraid to so much as touch it before I know more on that.) and iron just wont cut it for some situations, and since they have the decency to come in waves of hundreds, thats probably more available metal per siege than I have on my whole embark.

[Weizen1988]

@OP: Shame! Shame! (For the double posting.)

Some bolts miss (range needs to be long enough to make that amount higher), if the wall they hit after missing has no floor in front, they fall down to be reused. This implies some space between archery targets for missing bolts to fly through. While you can save a substantial amount of bolts that way the recycling rate goes down when your dwarves increase their skills and hit more often.

This falling down happens before just as much as behind a target, whenever a wall, door, raised bridge or similar is hit and there is no floor in front of it. It is probably possible to increase recycling rate even by a few clever design choices while still having all benefits of a range. However, there already are better designs for every single thing this does. Recycling rate can be 100% in dedicated bolt splitters. Training can be done easier with live targets, especially if they happen to be really well trained, hard to hit or sturdy to absorb the hits.

Im planning to set up a live training center, I just need to capture one of the damn necromancers who comes by to visit a month or so after the goblins leave each year.

So, how far away from targets is usually good? I didnt realize that had mattered, they are standing like 3 squares away, I tried to fit it into a corner of a room that was already a Barracks, was afraid if they overlapped something stupid would happen.

[Werdna]

How well trained is enough to shoot through fortifications?

Even an untrained dwarf can fire through fortifications - if they're standing next to them, which can be tricky.  What the poster meant was that at the 'Elite' level (the Great level or higher, I think?), a Marksdwarf can fire through a Fortification from any distance, which makes it a lot less fiddly to station your dwarves without using various building or burrowing tricks. 

This is true for enemies too, which is why Elite Goblin Archers are a pretty decent threat even to dwarves in pillboxes.

[Weizen1988]

How well trained is enough to shoot through fortifications?

Even an untrained dwarf can fire through fortifications - if they're standing next to them, which can be tricky.  What the poster meant was that at the 'Elite' level (the Great level or higher, I think?), a Marksdwarf can fire through a Fortification from any distance, which makes it a lot less fiddly to station your dwarves without using various building or burrowing tricks. 

This is true for enemies too, which is why Elite Goblin Archers are a pretty decent threat even to dwarves in pillboxes.

Oh, ive just got a 1 wide hallway (actually 2 wide, but one side is full of statues, read something about dwarves can dodge into statues) with fortifications, then a raising bridge to block line of sight if I need to stop, and a grate in front of that because reading that somehow creatures can climb or jump through fortifications scared me and i worried that if  they stepped onto the bridge before I shut it they might be thrown through the fortification, and it took longer to break than bars i heard, then a pit to stop easy access to the grates.