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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v3.1.1 for v0.47.04)  (Read 144295 times)

Taffer

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #450 on: July 19, 2020, 12:04:33 am »

(response to removed post removed)

* humanoids are mortal and are gendered, unless they're automatons. (Taffer)

I'm Canadian and I'd really like to avoid discussion of politics.

II personally dislike this change of mod not because politics, but just because this don't suits mythology base of this creatures and even not needed for realism reasons. Immortal creatures are real, like pool hydra, also exist female-only lizards, male-only species also exist (mostly, plants, but not only: isogamy of motile cells, androgenesis of silk moth).

As I've mentioned earlier in the thread I do enjoy reading my illustrated books on mythology. The problem is that the original myths vary and can be a little vague, and modern fantasy has built on them quite a bit. Kobolds, elves, and dwarves are very different from the original myths and nobody seems to complain about that. I think you've just read different fantasy books than I have, to be honest. I'm very far from the first person to envision alternate-gendered mythological creatures.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 07:41:32 pm by Toady One »
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #451 on: July 19, 2020, 07:39:38 am »

(response to removed post removed)

* humanoids are mortal and are gendered, unless they're automatons. (Taffer)

I'm Canadian and I'd really like to avoid discussion of politics.

II personally dislike this change of mod not because politics, but just because this don't suits mythology base of this creatures and even not needed for realism reasons. Immortal creatures are real, like pool hydra, also exist female-only lizards, male-only species also exist (mostly, plants, but not only: isogamy of motile cells, androgenesis of silk moth).

As I've mentioned earlier in the thread I do enjoy reading my illustrated books on mythology. The problem is that the original myths vary and can be a little vague, and modern fantasy has built on them quite a bit. Kobolds, elves, and dwarves are very different from the original myths and nobody seems to complain about that. I think you've just read different fantasy books than I have, to be honest. I'm very far from the first person to envision alternate-gendered mythological creatures.
Adding nymph will be better than just satiress. Even adding just goat ('forest nanny goat') will be more interesting. Also male harpies didn't exist, but in myths they give birth to some horses. Foul blendec don't exist in mythology at all, but I have better ideas, than just adding the same, but female.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 07:41:45 pm by Toady One »
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rmblr

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #452 on: July 28, 2020, 02:47:28 am »

FWIW

Quote
4. Nuke the whole idea from orbit and chalk this up as a good idea too annoying to perfect. I'm either nerfing every creature or indirectly buffing some of them. The more I untangle this the more of a balancing nightmare it becomes, unless I stop caring (I care). I'll still fix bite and nail scratch attacks, courtesy of Sver.

I think this is the best option.
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Taffer

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #453 on: July 28, 2020, 11:24:37 am »

FWIW
. . .
I think this is the best option.

Perfect. Thank you. I'll get back to work on a release. If anyone disagrees later I can revisit this.
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GreyGoldFish

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #454 on: July 30, 2020, 02:14:43 pm »

Hey there! I'm eagerly awaiting the next update, but I don't blame you for taking your time. I agree with nuking the idea since it sounds like more trouble than it's worth. However, I beg you to consider making wooly-limbed dwarves optional as I don't like that design and would appreciate it if I could have the dwarves I'm accustomed to and still play with this lovely mod.

Thank you for all your work so far, Taffer, and I wish you the best! :D
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #455 on: July 30, 2020, 04:40:29 pm »

Taffer, are you good in syndrome coding? I have interesting idea for Revised.
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Taffer

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #456 on: July 30, 2020, 04:48:44 pm »

Taffer, are you good in syndrome coding? I have interesting idea for Revised.

I haven't made one but they don't look difficult. What's the idea?
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #457 on: July 30, 2020, 09:23:52 pm »

Taffer, are you good in syndrome coding? I have interesting idea for Revised.

I haven't made one but they don't look difficult. What's the idea?
Bird women and kobolds lay eggs, but cannot hatch them due to a bug. I think, syndrome can remove CAN_LEARN by counter trigger, so they will become sentient back after hatching, but will breed without bug. Sorry, if my English is bad.
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Matrim_Cauthon

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #458 on: August 18, 2020, 01:32:09 pm »

What controls the leather simplification?

Trying to combine this with Sver's set, His instruction seems to be to just overwrite the revised raws, but this has left me with a million leather types.
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Taffer

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #459 on: August 18, 2020, 01:42:12 pm »

What controls the leather simplification?

Trying to combine this with Sver's set, His instruction seems to be to just overwrite the revised raws, but this has left me with a million leather types.

There's no way for Sver's mod to function without overwriting this one, to be fair.

There's no leather simplification in this mod. I've been failing to release my big update for so long that I've kind of forgotten what the current release version does, but I know it doesn't actually simplify all leather into one type like the Accelerated mod does. It simplifies a few creature names, makes small creatures not yield leather, and renames some leather types to 'fur' (eg giant tiger fur coat, instead of giant tiger leather coat).
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Matrim_Cauthon

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #460 on: August 18, 2020, 03:15:30 pm »

Ah that follows. Could have sworn it was your pack that had that, but must have been misremembering.

Haven't had any issues otherwise so far, other than wheelbarrows being bracelets, graphically speaking, but I'm pretty sure that's a LNP/tileset issue.

Thanks for the fast reply.
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Ziusudra

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #461 on: August 18, 2020, 04:44:10 pm »

Haven't had any issues otherwise so far, other than wheelbarrows being bracelets, graphically speaking, but I'm pretty sure that's a LNP/tileset issue.
They use the same symbol by default:
153 Ö   Bracelets, wheelbarrows*
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Ironblood didn't use an axe because he needed it. He used it to be kind. And right now he wasn't being kind.

Taffer

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #462 on: August 19, 2020, 12:37:32 pm »

Powering through this lately. There's quite a bit of cleanup I want to get out of the way, but I finished much of it. No ETA, but I've cleared most of my major to-do items. As always, you can visit the repository to track my progress.

After adding quite a bit into Revised, I've since been in cleanup mode, re-implementing noisy features in a cleaner way and deleting many useless comments. The Revised comments are now more helpful and less frequent, so if you see one it's more worth your time to read it. I'll also add a little blurb to the opening paragraph about the Revised comment style, because it's often misunderstood and is IMO quite helpful to anyone casually reading my files. Literally every change Revised makes is noted where I made the change, and it's not hard to reconstruct the original file even if you don't have it handy.

My hope is to get Revised into a rock-solid state next release. Line-by-line comparisons between v2.3.0 and v3.0.0 will be rough: I want noisy cleanups out of the way now to make future comparisons easier.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 12:44:46 pm by Taffer »
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Taffer

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v2.3.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #463 on: August 19, 2020, 03:54:25 pm »

EDIT: never mind.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 06:30:28 pm by Taffer »
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Taffer

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Re: Dwarf Fortress Revised (v3.0.0 for v0.47.04)
« Reply #464 on: August 19, 2020, 08:49:07 pm »

Finally, v3.0.0 is released! This is the 'I'm sorry I'm lazy" release. Most of the new additions are from the Modest Mod and Vanilla-Spice Revised. This has been a serious amount of work. I can somewhat confidently say I finally grok everything Revised does.

Future Revised updates shouldn't need to be quite so massive now that I've stabilized things.

Sometimes I've been too much of a minimalist, so here's some compensation.
• modest bodies has been fixed up and mostly integrated. the body parts are much more nicely named now. In a few cases I felt the changes read weirdly in combat, so I didn't include them.
• the Modest Mod announcements modifications have been brought back.
    • citizen deaths will pause and recenter.
    • mid-combat births will appear in the combat log
• toads and lice are carnivores.
• birds with taloned feet now kick with them.
• more giant creatures can kick. Also desert tortoises.
• moon snails also live in the tropics.
• ducks don't have sharp beaks.
• hippos are angry again.
• hippo bites are now "bites" again.
• flies, elephants, warthogs, chimpanzees, gorillas, muskoxen, orcas, sperm whales, and elephant seals aren't benign.
• orcas are large predators.
• moose and deer can be trained as pack animals.
• giraffes can bite.
• giant tortoise bites are edged.
• elk can be trained as (exotic) mounts and pack animals.
• hungry heads aren't large predators, they hunt vermin instead.
• dingos and anacondas aren't large predators either.
• giraffes can be trained as pack animals. Intended for elves.
• kobolds can use some creatures as pets. They like the poisonous ones.
• unicorns are war trainable.
• dwarven milk and cheese is available on embark.
• creatures made of inorganic materials will produce a boulder, bar, or wood block when butchered.
• hoof injuries can be splinted and need to be fixed by bone doctors.
• dwarves will no longer pick strawberry plants whole, nor try to eat them whole.
• animal people gain the SUPERNATURAL tag, preventing them from mutating into were beasts.
• some animal people have grasping tails.
• new creature attacks from vanilla-spice revised. For example, fly people and giant flies vomit acid when they bite.
• rhesus macaques, cyclops, minotaurs, yetis, sasquatches, stranglers, ogres, and blind cave ogres will steal booze again.
• rewrote reaction descriptions again to improve readability.
• golems and plump helmet people will reform if injured.
• added wooden training maces and hammers.
• brought back improved baby and child names for humanoids and extended it to all of them.
• gendered minotaur names.
• good-aligned grass will heal grazers.
• gave leech people genders.
• golden salve now heals, so it's no longer useless.
• cabbage, garden cress, lettuce, onion, spinach, taro, lesser yams, long yams, purple yams, white yams must be processed to bag first, not eaten whole. This provides seeds or growths.
• taro plants and lesser yams have roots.
• shrubs with unobtainable seeds can be picked whole and processed to bag like quarry bushes. This provides seeds or growths.
• due to bug 5812, all dwarves can equip longswords one-handed. Fixed that by increasing the size required to one-hand them.
• to compensate for this, longswords slash a greater contact area.
• short swords have a smaller contact area and penetrate better.
• scimitars were almost identical to short swords, so now they're a bit larger and are better suited for heavy slashes.
• grains are referred to by their proper names, not as "seeds."
• elves have greatarrows again.
• elves are TRAPAVOID. They step lightly.
• beak dogs now have special mottled skin. Their vanilla rainbow skin is pretty weird and never depicted in fanart.
• chitin and bone are no longer edible by vermin. Bodies in the open won't rot away completely anymore, but should leave bones strewn here and there.
• camel people, kangaroo people, and tapir people were missing fixes for bug 5105.
• cleaned up scale leather: it's now implemented much more simply and works with mod-added or randomly generated creatures. Thanks to Wannabehero.
• replaced NATURAL_SKILL with SKILL_LEARN_RATE for all animal people. The starting skill number was directly translated into a hundreds-place percentage. For example, toad people had 3 in climbing and 3 in stance_strike, so will now learn both skills at a rate of 300%. Some of these are inherited from their base creatures: in those cases I've ignored the problem in the interest of minimal RAW changes. A starting skill of 1 was translated to 150% skill gain in that skill.
• chitin is now properly considered bone for the purposes of armor crafting and doesn't yield leather, which I'd forgotten to take out (oops).
• goblins style their hair now.
• toughened chitin, nerve, muscle, cartilage, and sinew again.
• injured cartilage is painful.
• teeth injuries are no longer painful, just like vanilla.
• fingers and toes don't have muscle.
• adjusted the coverage of a few shirts: they were covering hips unnecessarily. Similarly, vests don't need to cover shoulders.
• sver material changes. Skin is toughened against force transfer, throats won't bleed during strangling. Organic tissues are tougher. Wood is stronger, mostly to buff elves. The temperature changes were not imported and are vanilla.

I'm still a minimalist, I can't help myself. Send help. Here follows the cleanups and banhammers.
• giant animals are no longer tamable by default...because they already were. Literally every single giant variation in the game has the PET_EXOTIC tag, making its addition in c_variation_default pointless.
• removed pointless comments. Revised changes are still indicated with curly braces, there's just no accompanying text if I didn't have anything useful to say.
• incorrect comments were fixed. Many of them were rewritten.
• giant toads, giant spiders, and giant bats now hunt all vermin, not just insects. This let me remove the EDIBLE_FLYING_BUG creature class additions.
• if I'm only adding things to a vanilla file, I now use a new file instead like a good modding citizen.
• reverted added SOUND tags from humanoids.
• humanoid leather is no longer named hide. After removing chitin leather I got a flood of errors from carapaced animal people when their creature variation tried to rename said leather. I didn't want insect animal people to give errors by default and didn't want to add dozens more lines supporting this manually to all the other animal people.
• I no longer remove NOTHOUGHT in the animal people variations, because the only animal it would apply to (sponge people) explicitly already remove it.
• biting and scratching is enabled again for beastly and savage humanoids. So pretty much everywhere but the civilized races.
• removed unarmed attack changes. I'm not in the business of trying to re-balance unarmed combat everywhere anymore. It's thankless, inconsistent, and mostly untested.
• kobolds lay eggs again. This behaves poorly in gameplay and is kind of weird IMO for a human-shaped creature, but unlike the animal people kobolds can't live in your forts.
• clarified comments on why I cap UBSTEP at 3, not MAX.
• for now, animal people don't vary in height and broadness anymore, just like vanilla. I've been experimenting with the descriptions for the next release.
• removed the new, buffed blood sucking attacks. Buffed the original attacks instead and tested: this is a cleaner way to do it. Vermin don't use attacks so it won't buff them.
• most or all of the primary/secondary attack changes have been removed. In most cases it wasn't intuitive to me how the animal or animal person should behave and in some cases it was a noisy change.
• renamed the _SMALL_ body detail plans to _NOLEATHER_ and _NOYIELD_. This is more descriptive and lets me eliminate many useless comments.
• throats unfortunately are now very vulnerable again, just like vanilla. This whole situation is messed up and complicated, it deserves a paragraph. The raws (fecking EVERYWHERE) define major arteries as very definitely being inside the skin, and throats are ONLY made of skin in vanilla. Sver fixed this by making the skin very thin and covering it with muscle, fat, and cartilage. It's an elegant solution that protects the throat much better at the cost of making combat logs read weirdly sometimes. In testing it felt really weird to have my goblin tear through cartilage to bruise the skin underneath. You can technically just add muscle, cartilage, and fat underneath the skin as normal and while that's very accurate of you, the arteries will still be in the skin. A proper fix would be to tell the creature raws that throat arteries are below the skin not in it, but that would add hundreds of changes to Revised to fix one combat issue. Instead I'm giving up and adding this one to the pile of things I hope Toady fixes someday.
• cleaned up facial part positioning.
• joints are no longer much larger than vanilla. This was inherited from Sver's mod, which inherited it from Grimlocke's, and I can't find any comments from Grimlocke explaining the feature. This is a particularly noisy fix that I don't think I ever actually understood until this obsessive cleanup round: my comments claim making joints bigger makes them stronger, which is a bit of a bold claim. Surely it just makes them more of a target? I thought of messaging Grimlocke but for now I'll revert the feature. I don't want to delay the release further and this helps to clean up body_default, which is still one of the most tedious files to compare against vanilla.
• revised added a lot of GOBBLE_VERMIN_CLASS:MAMMAL. Remove most of it. In almost all cases it was on aquatic creatures (there are no aquatic mammal vermin for them to eat) or on creatures too large to eat vermin, IMO. It was kept for snakes, though.
• removed the added sounds for the fish in creature_large_riverlake. These were the only fish that had added sounds (inconsistent) and it mentioned violent splashing, which felt a little odd.
• removed added sniffing sounds for many creatures, because I felt it wasn't loud enough to be worth including.
• reverted the 'no perfect armor coverage' changes. Felt like something I should probably test out better.  If I had the other balancing Sver did to the files I'd have kept it, but in isolation it didn't feel right to keep it.
• turbans, head veils, face veils, and headscarves in Revised were worn over armor, not under it. Turbans were shaped to prevent wearing more of them. This was all reverted. A few of these didn't make sense (face veils over armor) and the others could go either way. Also, reverting this meant I no longer edit item_helm. A small victory for compatibility.
• MATERIAL_SIZE on whips was reverted to vanilla. Whips have still been weakened, but they're now cheap to create again.

Sometimes I make mistakes too.
• animal people are no longer immortal (oops).
• monitor lizard women were missing their CASTE_NAME (oops).
• fixed a typo, eagles now cry like eagles and not falcons (oops).
• cleaned up some remnants of the old simplified names (oops).
• moon snails no longer have child names because they have no children (oops).
• restored missing GO_TO_END in the mantis person definition (oops).
• blizzard men can have HUMANOID_RIBCAGE_POSITIONS again, which I'd incorrectly deleted (oops)
• hair has ITEMS_HARD again. Not sure why this was changed from vanilla in Revised, mistake or uncommented feature?

After writing all of that I've just realized the description still needs fixing up, because I've missed some things. Feck it, I can do that later.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 10:41:36 am by Taffer »
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