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Author Topic: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations !!SUCCESS!!  (Read 7764 times)

vexxice

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 12:22:55 am »

Well, nobody takes cleaning jobs aboveground. If you have fly men instead of flys show up, well...elves ain't complaining - just more food to eat :P

@vexxice: It's under both sites -



- and regions, which are scattered (compared to the single town - also note that the hateful desert had complete sea gap separating it from town), but have far less events:


Of course, it's much easier to find this if you can use search function - I used Legends Browser and searched for "joined" under Sweptpaged, which also got me the numbers - 34 and 546/160 and 125 - but not species, oddly. Don't remember if I used expanded xml, but probably did.

That is a ludicrous amount of animal men in a single town.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2016, 01:10:59 am »

Nah, they're still a minority on that gen (though it seemed that number of animal men in that town increased with time, with 1500 year gen having hundreds more than 770 year gen).

Most of the town population is still human or goblin.

Still a sane amount, unlike Max™'s 121k fly men in forest retreat.

Anyway, you have the parameters, if you want :3
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 01:18:01 am by Fleeting Frames »
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vexxice

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 01:56:07 am »

I wish there was a script in dfhack to just force things to visit the tavern.

For example:

visitor spider_girl 100  *press enter* -> happiness.
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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 02:35:14 am »

Hm. Beyond the options listed on last page, you could also mod in a syndrome that transforms targets into spidermen.

And mod in a colony of above-ground spiders that sting the ones near them, based on beehives.

Then embark and find one, or just spawn one with colonies command. Then paint tavern on top of it and wait for ....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(I kid, I kid - there are more accurate and quicker ways to apply syndromes to targets or groups of targets, such as by also modding in a rock that vaporizes at room temperature with attached gas applying the syndrome, then using createitem to create such rocks.)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:36:50 am by Fleeting Frames »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2016, 11:47:20 am »

I've seen these elven-bound immigrations before, but i want to know is whether it is the site map (drawn to the wild places, forest retreats etc.) or the civ that prompts these events to happen.

However as a bit of trivia, if you open up the goblin civilisation (by modding full player functionality for dwarf & adventure mode, so you're playing the civ faction), though they have no events like this in legends & steal babies to create surplus population non goblin in origin they have a large variety of often large carnivore & vermin animalmen from a variety of places already within the concurrent society, alligator men are a fun one, coyote men, tick men etc. (though unless fly men are present, all other races generally are outscaled by the number of trolls & goblins)

>  Dwarves on the other hand have plump helmet men quite consistently based off their adjacency to the underground, while goblins often have Ratmen who are also a underground race, both the goblins & dwarves have site z levels with underground access that let them accommodate these races.

>  No need to be too specific since generally animalmen adventurers travel around a lot, but moreso about the specific places where they 'settle' & where they were brought up is important, and this is what the carnivorous & large predator selection in goblin (sometimes across humans too) animalmen adventurers comes from.


> This crow woman necromancer prior to being a crow was originally 'settled' in the dull hills as a historical figure (whether they were historical before or after they got struck with necromancery desire is unknown) and moved into the nearest settlement to fulfill their needs to contact a death god (which my modded goblins provided directly) and fufill the wish.

Beside from immigration, i would suggest this means that based on values or atleast subtle preferences based off existing tags, certain animalmen are more inclined to side with 1 civilisation in worldgen rather than another as a trigger based off the site location range (for immigrations to elven sites) & undefined values we are not aware of (though there's nothing else im aware of mentioned that would support that, that is my hypothesis)


Technically every animal person is a non historical figure in legends when it appears that (from my crow necromancer picture) every single living thing has the same (settled in '______') at world generation but it's not relevant to legends or the player so its left out for beaurocratic reasons.

Animal people could move out at literally any time if you gave them the inclination to through a personal wish implanted on them or a command to move out of the non-relevant historical figures & exist but otherwise they happily trundle about the landscape where they were born & will die. If somebody could DF therapist a animalperson actively immigrating to a elven site that'd be insightful to see if a desire like 'survive' is being acted on.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 11:53:28 am by FantasticDorf »
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Thisfox

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2016, 02:24:52 pm »

Then embark and find one, or just spawn one with colonies command. Then paint tavern on top of it and wait for ....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cats don't NEED to be bitten by a radioactive spider. They already know how to levitate up walls, have an agility score of at least 22/20, can run fast as a cheetah, can see in the dark and become invisible at will. They can even shed a choice range of furs depending on what they're sleeping on. Cats already have magical superpowers.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2016, 05:22:31 pm »

Hahaha, true. Still, the fur is minor annoyance compared to shooting out several times your body mass in webbing whenever they see a dangling cord or crackling plastic bag.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2017, 06:17:18 pm »

Hahaha bushtit
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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2017, 09:07:02 pm »

That is a ludicrous amount of animal men in a single town.
On that note, recently got this on an arguable improvement of that gen under development in 43.03.

But in this gen, none of the animalmen visited the fort when I ran a testfort for 2,5 years :( Just humans, elves, goblins and dwarves.

Takes more than just joining the site, I guess.

PatrikLundell

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2017, 01:18:41 pm »

I was just struck by an idea of how to fill your fortress with spider people: use DFHack to change the race of one dorf citizen at a time (or make a script that "blesses" all of them).
I haven't tried it, though, so it might not work.
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vexxice

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2017, 01:31:43 pm »

I was just struck by an idea of how to fill your fortress with spider people: use DFHack to change the race of one dorf citizen at a time (or make a script that "blesses" all of them).
I haven't tried it, though, so it might not work.
Interesting idea.

But would they turn into actual spider people, or a weird Urist Mc-thinks-he's-a-spider people? Either way, I'll have to try that soon.

That is a ludicrous amount of animal men in a single town.
On that note, recently got this on an arguable improvement of that gen under development in 43.03.

But in this gen, none of the animalmen visited the fort when I ran a testfort for 2,5 years :( Just humans, elves, goblins and dwarves.

Takes more than just joining the site, I guess.

I guess there is some other factor involved.
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vexxice

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2017, 11:47:41 am »

*****UPDATE*******
I have taken the suggestion of transforming dwarves that I already have into Spider-girls.

I receive the unit id with:
teleport -showunitid

2501 is the dwarf I'm interested in.

Then I use the transform-unit script:

modtools/transform-unit -clear -unit 2501 -duration forever -keepInventory -race BROWN_RECLUSE_SPIDER_MAN -caste FEMALE

Initially, this looks like it works. The dwarf transforms into the spider and continues to perform labors as usual. I have noticed a problem though with viewing the unit. If I look at her "thoughts and preferences" the game crashes. My guess is that the script has corrupted her description. Her relationships are still correct though.

Does anyone have experience using this script?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 11:57:21 am by vexxice »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2017, 02:07:22 pm »

I tried looking at the script and poke around with the logic (using gui/gm-editor to do the same basic transformation change), and yes, it crashed when I tried to skip the inventory transfer as well (in case the changed body plan might cause problems), and it also crashed when transforming into a kobold, but transforming into a goblin worked fine, and I had no problems looking at the victim's thoughts in that case.
I suspect it has to do with transforming into a non "civilized" race. I know gremlins joining civs by taming and then accepting a petition cannot have their thoughts viewed (but trying won't crash DF: you just can't do it [I think the key is greyed out]). However, it should be possible to get animal people as citizens via the visitor mechanism, but I don't know if there are trouble viewing their thoughts as well (modding animal people to be "exotic pets" and thus trainable is reported to behave as gremlins do normally when caught and trained).

Unless someone can shed some light on the problem my next suggesting is to add spider people as a playable race and make dwarves non playable.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2017, 07:38:35 am »

Animals that are 'tame' and intelligent don't have the tame-ness cleared properly afterwards, and sentient pets are generally buggy because the UI is largely overwritten by sentient UI. Its just not Toady's focus at the moment or really intentional to do because of dwarf civ centricity and because gremlins are such a isolated case.

I made a suggestion thread about it a while ago, which explains a lot of the differences between semi-intelligent pets & normal intelligent pets using Trolls & Gremlins as the archetypes and some ways to harmonise them with the rest of the civilised/livestock groups.

The biggest issue is that lots of the existing interface & systems really overlap in a negative way in these areas quite messily. For a long time dwarf therapist has been used to look inside the mind of gremlins to interpret their needs.
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vexxice

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Re: Please help me understand animal men and animal men civilizations
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2017, 08:54:50 am »

I tried looking at the script and poke around with the logic (using gui/gm-editor to do the same basic transformation change), and yes, it crashed when I tried to skip the inventory transfer as well (in case the changed body plan might cause problems), and it also crashed when transforming into a kobold, but transforming into a goblin worked fine, and I had no problems looking at the victim's thoughts in that case.
I suspect it has to do with transforming into a non "civilized" race. I know gremlins joining civs by taming and then accepting a petition cannot have their thoughts viewed (but trying won't crash DF: you just can't do it [I think the key is greyed out]). However, it should be possible to get animal people as citizens via the visitor mechanism, but I don't know if there are trouble viewing their thoughts as well (modding animal people to be "exotic pets" and thus trainable is reported to behave as gremlins do normally when caught and trained).

Unless someone can shed some light on the problem my next suggesting is to add spider people as a playable race and make dwarves non playable.

Very interesting.

I wonder if there is a caste difference between "civilized" and "non-civilized" animal men, and that I am actually turning the Dwarves into wild animal men instead of their civilized counter parts. This would go along with your goblin research. If they are uncivilized animal men, you should not be able to view their thoughts, but since they are members of my civ (which wouldn't be possible without dfhack), the thoughts screen button is active. The thoughts screen tries to open a thoughts screen which doesn't exist and it crashes. I wonder if there is a "civilized animal man" caste I could turn them into...
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