Dwarf Fortress > DF Modding
Furry Fortress Revival Brainstorming...
AceSV:
I've been blissfully ignoring v43, but I've been thinking that the under-development artifact stuff sounds like something I would like to play, and if I played it, I'd rather play it with animal people. But I think rather than translate to a new version, I'd rather start from scratch (sorta) and change things around.
So what would you guys want me to change about the way Furry Fortress works?
Here is the most recent version of Furry Fortress if you need to see it: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=153002.msg6493706
First of all, I think I would rather have less civilizations than FuFo2 did. It sounded fun, but it turned out to be cumbersome. The larger bodied civs, like the horstangs and leokin were kinda difficult to balance. So a new roster would probably include: Foxes(Japan), Rabbits(England), Goannas(Egypt), Hawks/Eagles(Vikings or Mongolians), Monkeys(China), Barracudas(or some other kind of fish)(Pirates/Maritime Culture), Gazelle(Pan-African/Zulu). There are a few others that I think might have merit, like the steampunk badgers, amazon ants, indian cobra people or wizardy salamanders. As before, I will gladly host extra "unofficial" content for Furry Fortress as long as it fits the general theme and guidelines, so I will try to write up some guidelines for people to follow as well.
I will probably discard the humans and elves. I might discard dwarves, although in FuFo2 they produce a special kind of metal, dwarrosteel, which is stronger that the steel you can produce yourself. Goblins are nice to have around as the badguy civ, although I feel like I had success making monster badguy civs and bad version civs. Actually, the Wyvern civ had a lot of flaws, but I think I can fix that by making them more like Kobolds and less like Goblins. There were a few more monster civs that I might add that I never got around to, like a centaurine kobold-like race or oak-men.
I noticed that allowing them to produce more than one ranged weapon royally screwed up hunting for a lot of cultures, since hunters will try to pick up any ammo lying around, and then freeze up if that ammo does not match the weapon they are carrying. So in a Fufo3, I think each civ would have one particular ranged weapon that is unique to their civ, rather than a bunch of ranged weapons that would be appropriate for them.
The way clothing worked in the old Furry Fortress bothered me. There's a lot of little bits of clothing, and I know a lot of the cultural garments aren't readily recognizable. So I might address that, but I'm not sure I know exactly how I want to do that.
The ability to make wood, stone, bone and glass weapons was not as useful as I thought it would be, I might skip that in a new version. However, it was also really easy to mod in, so I don't have a huge reason not to do it either.
I really liked the economically valuable trees and new metals. I might try to expand on that if I can think of anything. I might do elemental copper alloys. I might do some metal mixtures that approximate lead-iron combinations, or do some kind of "thunder-forge" or alchemy that allows you to extract aluminum and titanium from its ores and use it for steel alloys. (since I don't really care about the 1399 tech cut off, and I don't think aluminum or titanium alloys would be game breaking) I recently learned that white gold is made with nickel, that would be an interesting extra use for nickel. For trees, expect more stuff like lignum vitae or rosewoods. Maybe a few trees or plants with extra valuable fruits, like the sunberry.
I always talk about adding extra industries, but never get around to it. Stained glass, lacquer-ware or varnish, upholstery, paint, bone porcelain, alchemical potions, and enhanced fabrics have all passed through my mind. Admittedly, I tend to find the reactions process very mind-boggling. I'd also like to make some of FuFo2's fuel reactions more universal. Simiates could turn bones into ash and charcoal, and Tadghers could turn alcohol into ethanol fuel. I'd like to give all civs the ability to do that, although I will probably put some restriction on ethanol. I might make some kind of underground crop called diesel weed that can be processed into fuel.
I kind of want to add some prehistoric animals to give it a more quasi-fantasy pulp feeling. Sebecus, kelenken, mammoth, glyptodon, etc. Possibly a few vaguely fantastical creatures like rockodiles. But I don't know, it feels like a lot of work.
I think that the use-any-animal thing that the current animal peoples do gets a little annoying. I had originally wanted to give each race their own unique crops and livestock, but you can't do that without DFHack. However, I might have a way around it by making animals like camels, which are domesticated as long as you live in a biome where there are camels. Since the animal races all have specific starting biomes, that should make it completely do-able to make special camel-animals for each civ.
AceSV:
Well, I've been thinking it over, and I guess I do still want lots and lots of civs. Or at least, I like coming up with lists of weapons.
This time, rather than having a few generic weapons that everyone has, like "glaive", I will try to use specific cultural names for each civ, "naginata", "guandao", "atgeir", etc. This will clog up some of the menus, but also give you an instant recognition of where the weapon comes from.
Right now, I have more weapons that I really want. I think around 5 weapons per civ is fine. It will feel good for some civs like Chinese Kung-fu based civ to have a lot more, while some like a Mongolian civ would feel good specializing in only a few.
~ means I'm not sure about it
Spoiler: "Japan/Fox:" (click to show/hide)Katana
~Wakizashi
Yari
Naginata
Nunchaku
Kanabo
Kusarigama
Shuriken
Spoiler: "English/Rabbit:" (click to show/hide)Tuck
~Backsword
Billhook
Billglaive
Truncheon
Quarterstaff
Knight Lance
Longbow
Spoiler: "Egyptian/Goanna:" (click to show/hide)Khopesh
Scimitar/Short Sword (decide which to use)
Crook
Flail
~Spear
Fan Axe
Whip
Bow
Spoiler: "Mongol/Eagle:" (click to show/hide)Kilij
Keshik Lance
Battle Axe
Mace
Composite Bow
Spoiler: "Viking/Lobster or Raccoon:" (click to show/hide)Seax
Sverde/Viking Sword (decide what to call it)
Lug Spear/Winged Spear (decide what to call it)
Atgeir
Daneaxe/Bearded Axe (decide what to call it)(because if dwarves are kept, they should have Bearded Axe, but ideally, don't want to use place-names)
Bow/Javelin
Spoiler: "Pirate/Barracuda:" (click to show/hide)Cutlass
Rapier
Trident
Battle Anchor
Scourge
Knuckle Duster
~War Paddle
Harpoon Gun
Spoiler: "Zulu/Gazelle" (click to show/hide)Iklwa
Knobkerrie
Zulu Axe
Sjambok
Hunga Munga
Spoiler: "China/Monkey:" (click to show/hide)Dao
Jian
Bang/Staff (decide what to call it)
Flex Spear/Qiang (decide what to call it)
Sanjiegun
Battle Rod
Ji/Guandao/Pudao/Changdao (decide which to use)
Combat Fan
ChuKoNu/Repeating Crossbow
Spoiler: "India/Cobra:" (click to show/hide)Tulwar/Khanda (decide which to use)
Pata/Khatar (decide which to use)
Urumi
Haladie
Bhuj
Zaghnal
Trishula
Gada
Chakram
Spoiler: "Greco-Roman/???Maybe Ants again:" (click to show/hide)Scissor
Gladius
Trident
Labrys
Sarissa (pike)
Pilum
Spoiler: "Wizard/Salamander:" (click to show/hide)Combat Staff
Rune Saber
Scepter
Scythe
Mallet
(pick one of the three)
Wizard Staff
Sword that Launches Swords
Magic Wand
Spoiler: "Digger/Dwarves or Badgers:" (click to show/hide)Trowel Sword
War Spade
Shovel Glove
Bore Lance
Mattock
Drill Hammer/Cone Hammer
~Bearded Axe (if Dwarves)
Sling
Spoiler: "Vampire Hunter/Bats:" (click to show/hide)Stake
Battle Cross
Wrist Blade
Chain Whip/Chain Flail
Falx (because I want to use the Falx somewhere)
Crossbow or something flashier, Stake Gun, spinning blade thingy, throwing axes, etc
In addition to their weapons, these guys would probably have the ability to make a Super Silver alloy
Spoiler: "German/Raccoon or Lobster:" (click to show/hide)Messer
Zweihander
Halberd
Ahlspiess
Kriegshammer (hammer and pick)
Crossbow/Armbrust
It seems to me, it might be interesting to do some early firearms or similar weapons, hand cannons, grenadines, rockets, fire arrows, flame throwers, gun sword, gun katar, etc. I don't want them to work like the default ranged weapons, they should require metal bullets, metal barrels and so forth. I'll have to download some gun mods and see if I like it.
I've been thinking about making tree chopping axes (felling axes) and combat axes their own skills. Mainly because it makes enough sense for something like a war scythe, khopesh or bhuj to use the same skill as a battle axe, but it doesn't make sense for them to cut trees. And this way, all cultures can produce a "felling axe" that is distinct from their combat axes. So I may arrange the skills slightly differently than they were in FuFo2 to account for this. If anyone knows of some modding techniques to make this feel correct, I'd be interested.
AceSV:
Okay, here's a question. Any ideas on a way to make Fruit Bats that can harvest fruit without a stepladder? Or at least that don't get stuck in trees?
AceSV:
Thinking too fast now, but whatever.
Actually, I have been thinking of new ways to do metal. I like that there are additional metals in FuFo, but I'm not 100% pleased with the way they turned out, so I've been musing over other ways to do it.
I kind of like the idea of Atlantian Super Technology. Here and there, you might find pockets of lost technology. Probably nothing truly "super" but scraps of metal and rare gems, at least. There was an idea from a post-apocalyptic mod that I liked, that basically the world is littered with ancient landfills, buried in the soil. These would take the form of a "large cluster", like magnetite. The landfill is not valuable on its own, but the special metal ores and gems are generated only inside landfill clusters, like how platinum can be generated inside magnetite.
These landfills would be located in soil layers and be fairly ubiquitous. You should be guaranteed at least one landfill on a 3x3 map, maybe lucky areas have a lot of landfills, or a super rare landfill layer. I'll have to brush up on my mineral tokens to see what exactly is possible there.
Not sure how I want to handle the materials you find in the landfills. One approach is that the Atlantians represent modern day or near future humans, so their landfills contain materials like lightweight aluminum allows, high quality tool steels, plastics and advanced cloth. The furries that have inherited the world from the long dead Atlantians do not know how to produce these things, but they understand how to recycle them. Another theory is that the Atlantians had "everyday magic" something like Final Fantasy or Fairy Tail. In practice, probably not that different, but I would be less restricted and less guided in what I can come up with. There might be special buildings you can only make with tools excavated from Atlantian sites, like a thunder crystal that is the component for creating a thunder forge, which allows you to smelt aluminum and titanium, or a ghost turbine lets you create a building which provides free power for mills and pumps and so forth.
But that would be lots and lots of work, and let's be honest, I would probably chicken out and keep it simple.
The idea of Vampire Hunter Bats producing Super Silver makes me think it would be cool if every culture had its own special alloy, or perhaps just a special material, I'm not sure I would have enough good ideas for everyone.
Fox/Japan = Sakuragane = A highly refined form of steel, i.e. 2 steel bars + labor = 1 sakuragane bar;
Rabbits/England = ??? = They are vegans, so maybe they can make some material from plants that is usually made from animals. Plant leather, off the top of my head. Or maybe they can make leather out of metal? Chain leather?
Goanna/Egypt = ??? = Maybe an enhanced form of bronze;
Eagle/Mongol = ??? = Might have special abilities to make things without plants, like a carpenter shop that uses bone, or just convert bones to "bone logs";
Lobster/Viking = ??? = Probably something from Viking mythology. Red Gold?
Gazelle/Zulu = ??? = Maybe a poisonous, but I recall this being tricky to implement; Enhanced leather also springs to mind; Or something medicinal, if that's possible;
India/Cobra = Wootz = Probably same as Sakuragane, highly refined steel, or steel with an extra ingredient that strengthens it;
Monkey/China = ??? = Surely there's something from The Journey West; Maybe something to do with silk; Maybe something to do with Chinese Alchemy;
Salamander/Wizard = Rune Metal = Probably something that is intermediate between iron and steel, but the salamanders can transmute any metal other than iron or steel into Rune Metal.
Badger/Diggers = ??? = I still kinda like the idea of Ethanol Coke; Maybe something to do with gold, like they are gold diggers;
Bat/Vampire Hunters = Super Silver = I'm thinking it's basically steel, but made of silver instead of iron. Probably still heavy like silver. I would probably retain FuFo2's mechanic that you need sterling, not raw silver to produce weapons, so it could just be a way to weaponize silver without copper.
???/German = ??? = Theoretically, there's some equivalent of German Silver. Paktong would still be available to all, so maybe German Silver or Nickel Silver is a more valuable form than Paktong.
???/Roman = Super Pewter = Something to do with lead, for sure.
Ideas with no placement yet, a lightweight metal (although Aerochalcum is this), lead into gold, ability to spin metal into cloth, or some enhanced type of silk/cloth/etc.
To recap, the previous FuFo metals were: paktong, real life cupronickel, comparable to bronze or iron; dragon-fossil/dracometal, enhanced paktong; pyrochalcum, extra sharp iron; geochalcum, extra heavy iron; aerochalcum, extra lightweight iron; hydrochalcum, blue gold; blaze/rock/cloud/ocean steel, steel alloy with enhanced sharpness/heaviness/lightness/value; novachalcum, i think is basically tungsten carbide; pyro/geo/aero/hydrochalcum were found in small clusters in igneous layers. So you were basically guaranteed to find some, but they could be difficult to exploit in large scale. Combining one of each Xochalcum resulted in 2 bars novachalcum.
I think paktong is fine the way it is. I might see if I can make dracometal more like a metallic bone, instead of just multiplying paktong's stats. I don't like how pyro/geo/aero/hydrochalcum can all show up in the same place, and I want to exaggerate their properties a bit more. Instead of elemental steels or bronzes, I might allow you to produce "refined" versions using some other esoteric ingredient, bones, logs, sand, clay, silk, etc.
I've been thinking of making an ore called "deep iron", which appears deep underground, or at least not in sedimentary layers, so you don't have to rely on specific environments for iron/steel production.
EDIT:
Jotting more ideas down. I guess I'm also interested in expanding the number of real metals available. Even if I keep the 1399 tech cut-off, there are still a few metals that were sort of known to science.
Arsenic was known as a poison component of orpiment and realgar since ancient times. Arsenic can be used to create Arsenical Bronze. Arsenic is also alloyed with lead, I'm not sure why.
Antimony's ore Stibnite was used in cosmetics, and it rarely exists as a native metal. Antimony is used instead of lead in modern pewter, and it can be alloyed to lead to increase hardness.
Chromium and Cobalt were sort of known in ancient times, but not as pure metals. They are difficult to extract from their ores, and are often the chief components of "super alloys" along with nickel. They would be kind of a cheat, but an interesting one.
Magnesium was not at all known to ancient people, but it is a chief component of magma (as is aluminum, supposedly). In a culture with such a close relationship with magma, it might be interesting to develop some way of extracting magnesium. Magnesium is lightweight but strong, akin to aluminum and titanium, but also flammable and chemically interesting.
(We discovered in some previous episode that the carbon fuel from smelters decreases the melting point of iron and gets absorbed into the metal to create low-carbon steel. But magma has magnesium in it, which purifies sulfates from iron and steel. So a charcoal smelter and magma smelter would actually produce different grades of iron. )
I'd be interested to find more alloys of bismuth, but it seems like it's not popular in modern metallurgy. I removed bismuth bronze from FuFo2 in order to clean out less useful alloys.
Grimlocke:
--- Quote from: AceSV on February 06, 2017, 08:33:45 pm ---(We discovered in some previous episode that the carbon fuel from smelters decreases the melting point of iron and gets absorbed into the metal to create low-carbon steel. But magma has magnesium in it, which purifies sulfates from iron and steel. So a charcoal smelter and magma smelter would actually produce different grades of iron. )
--- End quote ---
About this specific bit: That sounds like its referring to bloomery iron, which accounts for most of medieval and iron age iron smelting, but it does not work by reducing melting temperature. Charcoal, when burning in a low-oxygen environment forms carbon monoxide which acts as a reductor on the iron ore. It smelts iron, without actually having to melt it. Heating bloomeries to the point of melting for iron would result in a heavily polluted chunk of pig iron, useless stuff.
Coke will also reduce iron ores just fine, but coke is also full of rubbish elements. Charcoal was used because it was a very clean fuel, almost pure carbon, and it is the only suitable fuel for pretty much anything not a blast furnace.
Mixing magma and iron ore directly would result in an even bigger useless lump I'm afraid. Magma is not an actual fuel either, just liquid rock and metal. You can't stoke it like a fuel fire so it just sits there, cools off and becomes a rock.
Of course I'm not saying you can't have magma smelters, just that realism alone isn't much of argument for them ;)
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