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Author Topic: A slight addition to religion...  (Read 5407 times)

Asin

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2016, 02:07:21 pm »

What FantasticDorf just said was a brilliant idea.

The "Ragnarok" event would make for a badass idea for mythology.

Also, the secret connected to an artifact that would revitalize defeated gods could be a cool goal for a religious adventurer.

FantasticDorf

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2016, 02:27:55 pm »

What FantasticDorf just said was a brilliant idea.

The "Ragnarok" event would make for a badass idea for mythology.

Also, the secret connected to an artifact that would revitalize defeated gods could be a cool goal for a religious adventurer.

'Heretical' religious adventurer rather, given nobody knows what cosmic plane they might be on right now or what they are doing. Probably twiddling their thumbs or being a teeny weeny bit peeved off at your current god and instigating Ragnarok again, ushering in horrors and twisted angels (literally who knows? Reminds me a bit of Chaos really)

Another thing to note is that mythology is going to give a bit of depth anyway, but a war in heaven implies that lots of people are going to be doing things, fighting - forging weapons and armour with divine guidance, and hence some of the things & tradecrafts are going to enter the world, especially with the dwarves who really take to that kind of thing. Nobody is BORN (literally or via just being alive in the world) a legendary armorsmith at year 0.

  • A time before time might not sound so silly when your soul (rather than worldly body) was alive during the War in Heaven directly or otherwise a descendent in the year 0 world of someone who was, and relics of that said time are thrown out to all the dark corners of the 'world as loot justifiably' It fixes a lot of plot holes. As well as justification for people & objects of exceptional non-natural quality to exist.

Not that we should force such a scenario to happen in fixed lore because different modifiers (not believing in gods at all by editing out pantheons) the game is still going to be a little odd. You could say this line of thinking is very inspired by Sun Wukong (The monkey king's) place in mythology and mythos being within the two places of heaven and earth at once and the gods having as much happening between themselves as a corny spanish soap opera.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 02:39:02 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Asin

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2016, 02:47:54 pm »

Hmm...
Going on the idea of gods being banished or killed, I propose a third fate.

Maybe they are cast from the heavens and into the mortal world or even the underworld?

FantasticDorf

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2016, 03:09:13 pm »

Hmm...
Going on the idea of gods being banished or killed, I propose a third fate.

Maybe they are cast from the heavens and into the mortal world or even the underworld?

Perfectly reasonable, but hopefully it will be lore centric but not too bruising for the world to bear, as nobody wants to fight a titan like literal god on-earth (however that state of affairs might vex their powers) by the first year or have all civilised society ended prematurely/punished TOO hard for digging down to the hell layer.

Who knows, it might literally 'Just be a guy', a drunkard outside the inn who quietly passes away during the night. Some people knew him as 'Urist McScotchbladdered' but he was actually a god who got dealt the shortest straw and punished to become mortal spending the rest of their days in the inn instead of going on some Odyssey to redeem themselves.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 03:11:33 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Asin

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2016, 03:12:48 pm »

Yeah, that's what I meant, a god that got turned mortal or, if they had even shittier luck, got sent to the Underworld and became a "high-ranking" demon.

Rubik

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2017, 10:32:20 am »

Yeah, that's what I meant, a god that got turned mortal or, if they had even shittier luck, got sent to the Underworld and became a "high-ranking" demon.

Here I am, thanks for pointing this thread out Asin, theology has been one of my hobbies for some time,so I always enjoy this threads
Well, no more blogging, lets get to god-talking

''In real life'' gods behave somewhat like mortals, and have affairs, problem and solutions to them, but their metaphisical laws are not like ours, nor their responsabilities, objectives and worries, thats why they can do stuff like casting someone off the god-world (usually poly-pantheistic rel., with the notable exception of god and lucifer), creating a gazillion angels to work for him, or why they transform into a goose and fertilize mortals
Some gods care too much, and have defined objectives(Catholical God), and some gods are just enjoying the godhood the best they can (The greek pantheon)
Ok, no here comes the interesting part

There's a paralellism between humans and gods, and why they do what they do in life, a reason why some gods  need to have as much followers as possible (direct existance caused by mortals' faith) and others just relax in their plane (existance is continous, as long as the universe exists), or why most humans lead the same type of life, dealing with the same problems and going to 'heaven' or 'hell'
The nature of the universe. Or, translated into DF jargon, The state of the procedurally gennerated myth system for a world

That's what Toady refers to when he speaks of different gods behaving differently, or even existing in a certain way, as well as forces of nature and certain mythological concepts even existing,  from one world to another, its because the methaphisical order can/does differ from one world to another
I know this might be obvious or simple to grasp for most, but I feel this concept is the base from what theology stems from, and its not something you usually think about, so let me delve a little more into it

Gods might be omnipotent (or not), but even a know-it-all god has objectives or at least things that take up his time, and this things are derived from the nature of the being in question

In a highly fantastical world, this objectives can vary wildly, you can have gods that created the world you live in, and that care about its creation, and so the religion they spawn are centered in equilibrium and ecology
You can have man-made gods (if the world's fantasy rating is high enough) that arise from misery and hatred, and so their religion will be centered about warship and cruelty (goblins gods mostly)

And a looong etc.
The main problem Toady has to implement all of this, as you can see , is that he needs to code in enormous ammounts of different situations, and AI for gods
Even more for inter-gods relationships and ''happenings'' like those described in the thread, or those in mithlogy


Phew, that turned out to be longer than I expected, sorry for the wall of text guys
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 11:16:59 am by Rubik »
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Asin

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2017, 10:40:17 am »

That makes so much sense.


Though one time Toady had said that in the future, we would be able to enter the plane in which a god or gods exist. That could lead to a scenario in where a god of death or murder or suicide or a god that's been corrupted starts going a little berserk and, should the player be skilled enough, be tasked with bringing down a rogue god.

To accomplish that, you might be given a weapon by whoever gave the quest (could be a god themself giving you a mighty weapon to fight the rogue god.)

This devolved from a suggestion to add in monotheism all the way to a simple religion thread.

And I am cool with that.

PatrikLundell

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2017, 12:05:13 pm »

You have a few different monotheistic situations/combinations:
- No fantasy: In that situation you can have every kind of mix of gods/panthea in the world (as is the case in the real world), as all divine interaction is so subtle (due to any omnipotent, supposedly opposing gods being "inscrutable") that only the believers can perceive them.
- Fantasy: Groups/civs can be monotheistic in a poly pantheon world, a bit akin to the old testament Jews. The god isn't the only one in existence, but it's the one who's claimed a group (or had a group claim it).
- Fantasy: One or more limited power god with hubris who wants to be the only one, and wages war (more or less overtly) against everyone else, akin to the real world Christian and Moslim god(s) (at least according to (some of) their religious leaders). A common game theme is the rotten apple who tries to kill/enslave all the other gods and steal/absorb their powers (Or usher in a world of peace and prosperity, free from strife, from the point of view of the god's adherents).
- Fantasy: An omnipotent god who is basically the head honcho. That doesn't rule out the presence of lesser divine beings subservient to the top god (angels, saints, demi gods, lesser gods,...). The top boss may not even be possible to invoke directly, but could always require the use of an intermediary, or might be directly messing around in the affairs of its plaything.

What you can't have is a fantasy world with omnipotent gods opposed to each other, but they can have any amount of power short of infinite (and you can have a situation with multiple players just playing a divine social game according to rules more or less known by the play pieces, with or without cheating).
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Asin

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2017, 10:17:15 pm »

You went into a whole lotta detail with that...


Good job.

I applaud you.

Asin

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2017, 11:30:55 pm »

*bump*

May the discussion revitalize.

IndigoFenix

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2017, 08:43:56 am »

What I'd like to see is a more organic system to religion.  Instead of having clearly delineated forms of worship, belief of a civilization could shift over time and the actual gods could reflect this shift.

Worshipers of a particular god could wage war on any who follow other gods, effectively creating a monotheistic society if they succeed.

A god can create angels, and some of those angels may receive worship, elevating them to the status of gods.

Megabeasts, heroes, kings, demons, night creatures or wizards can attain worship and if they amass enough of a following may ascend to godhood when they die.

Gods associated with particular regions could infuse those regions with magic, becoming forces.  They could also create titans in the same way that other gods create angels.  Or conversely, nature-worshippers could give a name and identity to the region in which they live, creating a force that can infuse the land with magic.

Some gods may become formless if their worshippers prefer non-depicted deities.

Mechanisms such as this would make it possible to program a large number of possible behaviors without having to independently code each one.  Civilizations could be differentiated through tags that determine their possible range of beliefs.  For example, elves could be nature worshippers but not like gods with forms, humans and dwarves may practice hero-worship, and goblins can worship notorious night creatures and beasts.  It would be possible for one civilization to "adopt" a god from another, which may change it over time.

Interestingly, this would make it possible for a creature to have aspirations of godhood in addition to  mere immortality and world domination.  Maybe even a particular megalomaniac may aim to become the One God...and succeed!

FantasticDorf

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2017, 10:46:02 am »

Revering to be in reputation, (god monarch/ avatar of said god) is much different to actually being a god, unless the lines are blurred. Even if that megalomaniac might not actually achieve the divine, in having such a reputation for piety & power they might be lore attributed to being the offspring of a god. Such as impressionable people are.

Then again there's always the way it could swing oppositely in being attributed to demonic power, such as Sir Francis Drake. Actually transferring into godhood rather than a persistent idol of worship after they are dead (such as the numerous gods of metal that happen to be random yaks that died in the first 100 years) are slightly different matters.

In that case you'd have to actually substantiate the power of concentrated belief as a way of magic, a god stops being worshipped and the god ceases to exist or becomes dormant just for a example. Re-opening a religion with a adventurer to lead a heretical cabal (or committing to ways to release or ressurect) just kicks starts them into life again. A world with no magic cannot channel or conjure up god granted powers.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2017, 04:00:12 pm »

I've always been a firm proponent of the idea that a god needs worshipers in order to exist, or at least to have power. I've also favored the idea of demons, titans, & other legendary beings (including heroic mortals) having the potential to become gods themselves, by acquiring an actual divine sphere & enough worshipers to acknowledge this acquisition.

But what happens if this pattern is applied to other aspects of the game? If you can worship a god into or out of existence, does "faith becomes fact" work for other matters as well? If a stage magician convinces enough people that he really DID saw that woman in half & put her back together . . . does he gain the power to actually DO it? If a kobold tells all his friends that he snuck into a dwarven fortress & stole an incredibly fabulous gem . . . does the gem itself actually appear on his person? If enough people are absolutely sure that the world will end on a certain date . . . will it? If not, WHY not? Where's the dividing line between those aspects of "real" life that can be influenced by faith/prayer, and those that cannot?

If, like me, you set that dividing line as "all actions that come to pass through faith do so because they were accomplished by intelligent deities, acting on behalf of their worshipers," then there must also be a divine being that can elevate & demote other gods. This would necessitate an Overpower, whether you call it Armok, or Ao, or Jehovah, or whatever. More to the point, it's safe to say that any theological argument that we make here could (and therefore most likely would) be made by the dwarves themselves. Watch all of the pantheons disintegrate, one by one, and be replaced by monotheistic religions, which I personally would find quite boring. We need to make sure that whatever divine architecture(s) we end up with is not only fun & flavorful, but also reasonably stable.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2017, 12:04:03 am »

You don't need a single overdeity to elevate others.  The Greeks and Egyptians were quite fond of elevating their heroes and kings to semi-divine or divine status.  Typically they are said to have been part-god themselves, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have mortal parents as well; the Egyptians had the idea of a god periodically taking the place of the king and the child of that union would be the next king.

We already have instances of this kind of semi-spontaneous magic that could be transferred to a deification process: namely, ghosts and artifacts.  Is there any real difference between the ghost of a king that protects his people and a deity?  It would be interesting if the game could blur the lines between one supernatural being and another.

As for artifacts, well right now they are kind of gamey and boring, with random dwarves suddenly being struck with inspiration and becoming legendary as a result.  Wouldn't it make more sense if a craftsman who was already legendary gained the occasional power to infuse their greatest creation with magic?

I don't think all beliefs should become real, both from a storytelling perspective or a programming one, but events could develop along those lines.  For example, there is already a mechanism in which entities could learn secrets of magic in a dream; these dreams could be sent to people already in positions of power.

It also has the added benefit of making worlds with or without magic operate in more similar ways.  Religious beliefs expand in the same way, the only difference is whether the gods actually use the magic people ascribe to them.

FantasticDorf

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Re: A slight addition to religion...
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2017, 05:03:21 am »

I mean posessed dwarves don't actually dictate how the object is going to turn out by themselves. The entity "controlling" them could chant any sort of deadly hex onto it, what's not to say a demon might use this to undermine a competitor rather than go through to them in their nightmares and other magical mediums.

- A armor smith creates a legendary sword in a posessed mood, chanting into runic passages across its blade & hilt that light up with power, upon taking off his gloves to inspect the object using his bare hands when he regains conciousness, he is struck down by the sword's hex to stop anything's heart the sword touches.

As to say the artifact via a particularly rebellious god of fire could light the fortress on fire afterwards with none of the dwarves being aware of what enchantments are on the object. A anti-artifact usually the kind you seal behind a wall or weaponise.
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