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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3532458 times)

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15120 on: December 03, 2017, 09:39:23 pm »

There is no legitimate TV news anymore. Sure they might report things that are correct on occasion, but they're almost always spun a certain biased way, whether it's for political reasons, economic reasons, or simple incompetence.

All we really get penetrating through the noise of it all is the war drums. One side or the other, sometimes one and the same. But everyone hears something different. Everyone fills in the gaps with whatever they want to hear.

It's disgusting, and I have no idea how we'll dig ourselves out of this. It's honestly the most depressing thing in the world today, that we've managed to build a democracy, a republic, whatever you want to call it, a government that's meant to be for everyone equally, and yet we so willingly let it go and put the power in the hands of those with money and influence so they can ensure that equality is never achieved. This isn't even a Trump thing either. This is just the direction the nation was going to go either way. The way it's been heading for a while and the way it'll probably irrecoverably end up within a generation or two... if not sooner.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15121 on: December 03, 2017, 09:42:54 pm »

we've managed to build a democracy, a republic, whatever you want to call it, a government that's meant to be for everyone equally

When did we do that exactly? When have we ever had that?
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15122 on: December 03, 2017, 10:53:58 pm »

we've managed to build a democracy, a republic, whatever you want to call it, a government that's meant to be for everyone equally

When did we do that exactly? When have we ever had that?

You want I should copy and paste the declaration of independence... or maybe the Gettysburg address... or the succession of constitutional amendments that, as time went on, extended guaranteed voting rights to more and more people and removed ability for powerful people to limit that right based on inequality.

Imperfect the result may be, and you can argue that we've had little success in that attempt, but the intent was stated and the house was built. What the future occupants decided to do with the house is another matter, but the intent was explicit from the outset and didn't die immediately either.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15123 on: December 03, 2017, 11:35:48 pm »

I'd rather not have a wall of text, thank you very much :P
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bloop_bleep

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15124 on: December 03, 2017, 11:45:01 pm »

I'd rather not have a wall of text, thank you very much :P
We are going to build a wall of text and the grammar Nazis are going to pay for it.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15125 on: December 04, 2017, 12:04:15 am »

See, this is interesting, and the reason I think that whether you see it as good or bad American Exceptionalism is a legit concept insofar as the US is judged and seen in an entirely different way than any other country.

The more I learn about history and other cultures, the more I become convinced that America is obsessive over the philosophy of politics to a degree you don't see a lot of elsewhere. American culture and American politics ruminate endlessly on past violations of and strides towards the enlightenment ideal of the state as more than a force of control and self-glorification. I'm not the first person to suggest that this might be the real core difference between the "Two Americas" we talk about a lot in the Trumpist Era - the right prefers to focus on accomplishments towards this endstate, the left prefers to focus on the crimes and atrocities that separate us from the endstate.

Both seem fairly convinced the other is the principle enemy of reaching "perfect union" as well.

I really don't see a lot of this when I read about politics in other nations. The UK doesn't seem bothered at all by that whole "attempted world domination" phase and the attendant atrocities, they're an entirely different society now. People in the US are still arguing whether the country once keeping slaves makes anything good the US does morally tainted forever or if anything we do now qualifies as continued slavery. The right does this as well as the left - there's a reason the GOP repeatedly tries to claim their only member, ever, was Lincoln.

Not necessarily saying this is a good thing either. You could technically call this zealotry, which is a sentiment I've seen foreigners express in a myriad of avenues. The only other nation I see as regularly matching this pattern is the Soviet Union. Maybe that's why some people are forlorn for the Cold War.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15126 on: December 04, 2017, 12:24:17 am »

I wonder if the British had a 'British exceptionalism' thing going during their empire phase. We're still in the 'attempted world domination phase' and could remain there for the next 50 or even 200 years.

It's just going through a post Cold War political shakeup because the same geopolitical regieme that existed then isn't there anymore. Well, okay, a lot of it is there, but it's multipolar instead of split between pro-Soviet and pro-US.

Even the Roman Empire had its rough periods.

I think that might be related. We spent the past 50 years in a cultural arms-race and won. Except now we're left with a culture that as you've described and nothing to really compete against.

China maybe? Though yeah, that could explain it a good deal because it's a pretty sudden culture shift.

And Putin is trying to regain his countries old glory.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15127 on: December 04, 2017, 12:30:48 am »

Political philosophy has always been integral to who we are as a country, though. Empty philosophical bloviation helped reframe the Revolutionary War from "we don't want to pay taxes to help pay for the wars fought in our defense" to the load of high-minded nonsense everyone's taught in history class about self-evident truths and so forth, and it's been getting poor people to go along with what the rich and powerful want ever since. We have always been a plutocracy in all but name, we have always had hereditary nobility in all but title, and we have always fought tooth and nail over our preferred rhetorical justification for the vast disparity between what we profess philosophically and what we actually practice politically rather than anything substantive. We're trained socially to punch sideways at the other party so the aristocracy doesn't have to dirty their gloves punching down; this is also why social justice movements have been cropping up with increasing frequency to fill in the gaps for people too disgusted with the system to play politics: so that poor women can blame poor men and poor black people can blame poor white people and everybody has a favorite way to cast the overarching class war in a way that gives them targets they can actually reach. Everyone's so concerned with who's in the boardroom that they never ask why the board controls their lives. American Exceptionalism is just another way we're encouraged to think about philosophy rather than reality, because reality is deeply at odds with the worldview our political system has been paid to advertise.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 12:42:48 am by Trekkin »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15128 on: December 04, 2017, 12:46:33 am »

Aint that the fucking truth.  Maybe the classes should focus more on the "A house divided cannot stand" rhetoric, and less on the other fantastical aspects.

*little aside:*

(grumbles about the horrorshow Fox had on a few days ago about BLM wanting to make a "black christmas".  Oh, it disgusted me Fox, but not in the way you wanted, for sure. The very idea that your skin color matters for a re-branded "solstice celebration turned excuse for shameless commerce" disgusts me, and the way you presented it also disgusts me. How about-- If you want to give a present, just fucking give a present, and if you want to celebrate the holiday a non-traditional way, go ahead and do so, but there is no reason to raise a fuss. Skin color of the celebrants is not important. No. Its just not important, and I refuse to treat it like it is.)
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15129 on: December 04, 2017, 01:16:23 am »

Never should have left britain, nope. We'd be better off if our money still had the queen on it.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15130 on: December 04, 2017, 01:38:43 am »

Worked for Canada.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15131 on: December 04, 2017, 03:32:00 am »

Never should have left britain, nope. We'd be better off if our money still had the queen on it.

Who cares what's on the money? For that matter, who cares if we have a queen, provided they reign but do not rule? A properly powerless monarchy wouldn't be so bad, frankly; it'd stop us putting on airs about other countries' royal functions and they could busy themselves writing birthday letters to pensioners and making pompous speeches and being pointlessly dignified while generally filling in when the elected officials have more important things to do.

At any rate, the breakup of the Empire was inevitable. Royally ticking them off with one stupidly entitled hissy fit after another until they finally said something we could use as a joke of a casus belli was probably not the best way to jump the gun; do recall that the government formed in the aftermath of the Revolutionary War was constantly on the brink of collapse before being replaced.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15132 on: December 04, 2017, 10:25:56 am »

I wonder if the British had a 'British exceptionalism' thing going during their empire phase.
If?! The Empire on Which the Sun Never Sets? Naaah.

Quote
Even the Roman Empire had its rough periods.
Rough periods? Like incredible violence? Splitting the Empire in two on multiple occasions? Switching from a weird sort of paganistic imperial religious pluralism to a monotheistic religion with radically different moral and social mores? Being invaded by Huns, Vandals, Goths, Visigoths, Celts and the like? Emperors who let Rome burn?

Never should have left britain, nope. We'd be better off if our money still had the queen on it.

Who cares what's on the money? For that matter, who cares if we have a queen, provided they reign but do not rule? A properly powerless monarchy wouldn't be so bad, frankly; it'd stop us putting on airs about other countries' royal functions and they could busy themselves writing birthday letters to pensioners and making pompous speeches and being pointlessly dignified while generally filling in when the elected officials have more important things to do.

At any rate, the breakup of the Empire was inevitable. Royally ticking them off with one stupidly entitled hissy fit after another until they finally said something we could use as a joke of a casus belli was probably not the best way to jump the gun; do recall that the government formed in the aftermath of the Revolutionary War was constantly on the brink of collapse before being replaced.
There are real differences there though. Brits and other Euros may argue that having a King or Queen is basically like democracy anyway, but that's entirely too presentist: before America and the French Revolution, there were no democracies, and Kingdoms were certainly not it (hell, even England's lauded parliamentary system was still in a pre-Reform bill phase). Assuming that the US could have stayed is a second-order counter-factual: the world changes but you assume that the trajectory of history doesn't. What if it did? Would a US Dominion have purchased Louisiana? (Not from Napoleon, and without the US, is there necessarily a French Revolution to begin with?) Would a US dominion have invaded Mexico or purchased Florida? What happens to the border between the US and Canada, does that stay the same as well? Maybe the UK chooses to involve itself more in the New World in that timeline, given it still owns a lot of land there and its rival spain is losing out. What happens then? And that doesn't get into the really hard-to-predict cultural differences: What is America, and the world, without Alexis de Tocqueville? What happens?

You can't just change one element of history and expect the rest to stay. One quote I've heard a lot recently: "Just because something doesn't happen, doesn't mean that nothing happens, it just means something else happens."

On a completely different note: Trump is maneuvering to keep Romney from running for the Senate, and Romney is not pleased.
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MoonyTheHuman

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15133 on: December 04, 2017, 10:34:33 am »

A reliable, unbiased news source... If only such a thing existed. ):
There has to be more to this story.
Yet, we probably won't ever know.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol: Semate passes tax 'reform', now attempting to cross streams with House
« Reply #15134 on: December 04, 2017, 10:49:41 am »

Political philosophy has always been integral to who we are as a country, though. Empty philosophical bloviation helped reframe the Revolutionary War from "we don't want to pay taxes to help pay for the wars fought in our defense" to the load of high-minded nonsense everyone's taught in history class about self-evident truths and so forth, and it's been getting poor people to go along with what the rich and powerful want ever since. We have always been a plutocracy in all but name, we have always had hereditary nobility in all but title, and we have always fought tooth and nail over our preferred rhetorical justification for the vast disparity between what we profess philosophically and what we actually practice politically rather than anything substantive. We're trained socially to punch sideways at the other party so the aristocracy doesn't have to dirty their gloves punching down; this is also why social justice movements have been cropping up with increasing frequency to fill in the gaps for people too disgusted with the system to play politics: so that poor women can blame poor men and poor black people can blame poor white people and everybody has a favorite way to cast the overarching class war in a way that gives them targets they can actually reach. Everyone's so concerned with who's in the boardroom that they never ask why the board controls their lives. American Exceptionalism is just another way we're encouraged to think about philosophy rather than reality, because reality is deeply at odds with the worldview our political system has been paid to advertise.

Claiming it was just about "we don't want to pay taxes" is vastly oversimplifying the situation. It was a combination of unjust and onerous tax impositions, the colonies feeling like they were dragged into wars they had no desire to be in, the British ignoring laws passed in the colonies, the imposition of requiring the colonies to maintain the British soldiers in food, shelter and other comfort (in addition to pay taxes for their salaries), a series of violent outbursts between colonists and those same British soldiers they were required to care for, and finally culminating in the Intolerable acts, essentially punishing the entire city of Boston by closing their port and ending self governance of Massachusetts as a whole and basically gave British officials legal immunity while in the colonies by allowing any trial involving them take place in Britain or elsewhere, making it nearly impossible for most people to call witnesses or otherwise pursue a legal battle.

The constitution and the Bill of Rights didn't just come out of nowhere. While a lot of it is just basic framework for a government, the 10 amendments of the bill of rights specifically tended to guarantee against specific actions the British government tried to force on the colonies in the years leading up to the war.

The Third amendment specifically covered quartering soldiers in private residences.

The Fourth amendment while broad enough to have been any number of issues, seems to stem from the Gaspee incident and other similar situations where Rhode Island viewed the British as unreasonably searching and seizing their ships and cargo.

The Sixth Amendment covers having a speedy and public trial in the place where the crime was committed. Direct response to British officials having their trials take place elsewhere to avoid their accusers.

The Seventh Amendment covers the trial by Jury. Specifically limiting the ability of corrupt officials deciding important cases (Literally anything worth more than 20 dollars.)

The Ninth amendment specifically separates the powers of government just to avoid any given person becoming too powerful.

We may be a plutocracy in effect, but that's not for lack of trying to avoid such a situation. Attempts were made to avoid that but a document so old and thrown together in a couple of years could not foresee over 200 years of future ahead of it with which those working against its goal could undermine it and find loopholes to work within it. Changes have more or less been made to assist in this goal over the years, but the constitution, while not immutable, is very hard to modify, for better or worse. Any reaction to people taking advantage of society in unjust ways is always going to be slow even in the best of cases and will still have to overcome significant inertia on the part of the constitution, by its own rules and the attitudes of those who work with it, to remain as it is.
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