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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3593454 times)

EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16890 on: February 05, 2018, 03:24:00 pm »

(I'm dealing with the generic case. Koch brothers or Joe Jones a handyman of Power Cable, NE, if a politician received funds to fight an election then after the election any spare funds are surplus. If that politician did not have enough and had to top up from his/her "being a politician" fund that continues across multiple events, then there are going to be rules about how much can be pushed into event-specific spending (or make it an "Mr Politician is a politician you'd like!" ad, which has rules against (over)use at the crux-times of specific campaigns, rather than a "Vote Mr Politician for This Position" one) to, so they might well also be their own beneficiary, but auditably so, and regulatable.  It is complicated, as I already acknowledged. But I don't begrudge Kochs getting money back. In proportion, though, so if a fund was double the size it needed to be, they would get half of their X millions back and each and every Joe would get five of his ten dollars back.)


Out of interest, do you think Trump misunderstood the situation again, or did he just deliberately spin things for his Base. Given he has a definite history with this (like the anniversary Women's Marches being 'praised' as being in support of him.)
Political donations should not be given back.  Its a donation.  You're not buying a service.  It is no longer your money.  If we're going to structure our rules around the idea that donors are owed something by their candidates, we might as well staple a price tag to the back of Mitch McConnell's suit.  It would be more honest that way.

When a politician gets a large amount of money in donations, be it the more smaller donations of the dems or the fewer larger donations of the GOP, that's a bribe.  The bribe isn't that you get money, its that you get elected.  The dems' bribe is less corrupt because it more resembles how the actual system is supposed to work, AKA 1 person one vote.  But its still corrupt.  In the US money is speech and people literally vote with their wallet.  If I give 5 dollars to Bernie Sanders, my "vote" is effectively worth more than someone who merely cast a ballot.  And thus I've created a situation where Bernie Sanders will have a conflict of interest; he's supposed to represent all Americans should he win, but he now has an incentive to pander to my demographic over all others.  Sure, you could argue that its necessary and a small donation is the least of all possible evils.  But its still participation in a fucked up system.  And that's the best case, when you look at what's going on with say the Republican senators that approved Besty Devos the situation gets so much worse.

You're complaining that people are converting an influence bribe to a money bribe.  Its still a bribe.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16891 on: February 05, 2018, 03:55:11 pm »

Political donations should not be given back.  Its a donation.  You're not buying a service.  It is no longer your money.  If we're going to structure our rules around the idea that donors are owed something by their candidates, we might as well staple a price tag to the back of Mitch McConnell's suit.  It would be more honest that way.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood your point and was trying to deal with the already-allowed option of handing back monies. That's only, at best, as good as investment as your candidate winning, juggling your needs (however they see fit, along with everyone else's) into a plan of doing something legislative in your favour and then carrying out that plan in the face of all competing plans. If you overcontribute to him/her and (s)he wins, that money is diluted as everyone else is lobbied. If you overcontribute and the campaign fails, you got nothing at all. Getting a fraction of the donation back is sparse comfort if you realise you could have funded two or more candidates for the same position, and got more elected persons willing to grant you favours. Not that I'm a fan of cash-for-influence, but given that campaign funds are a thing (not a commission-funded guaranteed five-minute TV slot per day, with identical production values, and evened-out prominance, behind each enrolled candidate's unique messages, and then a total ban on anything that involves personal costs like rallies or sky-writing planes) then campaign funds are a thing. Solving bribes-but-not-in-name is a separate thing. And bribe-money that pays for a retired failed-candiate's future holidays is probably the best kind of bribe. A wasted one that could have been spent better elsewhere, so lessening the impact of bribes overall.

And you missed that I said I generally favoured passing on unused funds forward to successors of the same ilk, the original person losing all future rights to them once so declared and therefore no fund that pays for sea-food extravaganzas as a private citizen (if the new guy perhaps entertains the old one as a consultant, that's on their tab, and part of their funding limitations and accounting).  Now those bribes might well be more effective. But depends heavily upon the retiree passing on their funding to a person that entirely shares the same obligations of the retiree. Dilution of interest (intellectual, not financial) occurs as the retiree might have changed path away from the original donor (or vice-versa), or the recipient chosen by the retiree actually has their own ideas on this one, insignificant, issue and is Pro-Basketweaving where the original donor was attempting to influence an Anti-Basketweaving candidate, but still benefits from the lump of money because of his overwhelming similarity of opinions regarding the serving of cabbage in school canteens (an issue the donor has nomstrong opinion of, but retiree and newcomer both agree strongly enough to form such a proxy-donor relationship).

And, as said, It's Complicated. First of all Real Life, second of all Idealised Real Life, third of all The Unknown Tapestry Of The Future, where the importance of baskets and/or cabbage may rise or fall (and even repolarise) in the minds of many. Can't legislate for that, at all.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16892 on: February 05, 2018, 05:17:02 pm »

Um....in case you missed it, the Dow Jones fell 1175 points today. Worst one-day loss in history.

Finally, Trump has an actual superlative that's true!
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16893 on: February 05, 2018, 05:19:45 pm »

Um....in case you missed it, the Dow Jones fell 1175 points today. Worst one-day loss in history.

Finally, Trump has an actual superlative that's true!

The worst trade deal, perhaps ever in history.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16894 on: February 05, 2018, 05:28:47 pm »

c A p I t A l I s M  i S  h U m A n  N a T u R e
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16895 on: February 05, 2018, 05:43:15 pm »

Trump's SOTU: "The stock market has smashed one record after another"
The man delivers!

Alternate comment: The stock market rose for almost a decade under Obama, but Trump has shown that his commitment to reversing his predecessor's policies knows no bounds.
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Levi

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16896 on: February 05, 2018, 06:27:37 pm »

Um....in case you missed it, the Dow Jones fell 1175 points today. Worst one-day loss in history.

Finally, Trump has an actual superlative that's true!

Its okay though, because Trump is planning to fire Dow Jones.   :P
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16897 on: February 05, 2018, 06:50:30 pm »

By the way, we're almost ready for our monthly installment of "Who Wants To Fund A Government?"

Basically, last time around they shut it down for a weekend, then passed a two-week continuing resolution to give themselves space to negotiate (on DACA and budgetary impasses). And then did pretty much no negotiating at all.

We also have a new debt ceiling vote coming up sooner than expected, because the Trump tax cut tacked on a trillion in new debt. So that's fun !!FUN!!

Haven't heard anything about it coming up sooner than expected, though I thought the new trillion in debt would have gotten applied yet. It's still somewhere in March, probably beginning of March, end of February thereabouts.

Chances are that they'll punt it for another month (though I've read something about punting to September, which seems like a terrible idea to me). Although, there are grumblings among the Republicans, the fisical hawks mainly, but others too,that they are tired of doing the continuing resolution and really want to do a normal two year budget. So, if theres a shutdown, it could come from the Republicans this time.
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16898 on: February 05, 2018, 08:08:39 pm »

It seems the GOP hand this time shutdown wise is holding the community centers they've let lapse in funding hostage to get the can CR kicked down the road to march.

This is, of course, after utterly failing primarily, near as I can tell, to get to trump to pull his senile head out his racist advisors asses enough for ryan the spineless to be able to read clear enough smoke signals to convince his craven shit of a self to actually let something get voted on DACA/immigration nature in the house.

Will this hostage situation work to cover republican political incompetence/malfeasance, again, who knows. Sooner or later they're going to start risking running out of bodies to hold a financial gun to the head against if they keep this shit up.

Um....in case you missed it, the Dow Jones fell 1175 points today. Worst one-day loss in history.

Finally, Trump has an actual superlative that's true!
I totes missed it. There signs it's because of something specific, or is it just the cavalcade of shit that is this administration finally starting to pile up in a real visible way?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16899 on: February 05, 2018, 08:33:08 pm »

Um....in case you missed it, the Dow Jones fell 1175 points today. Worst one-day loss in history.

Finally, Trump has an actual superlative that's true!
I totes missed it. There signs it's because of something specific, or is it just the cavalcade of shit that is this administration finally starting to pile up in a real visible way?
Depends on how much you blame the Trump administration for the continued existence of the boom/bust cycle. Everything since 2012 has been the boom. It's about time for it all to bust and for the rich to get another bailout.

Or, you know, we could strangle capitalism with its own chains instead. I'm willing to keep that one on the table.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16900 on: February 05, 2018, 08:35:32 pm »

Um....in case you missed it, the Dow Jones fell 1175 points today. Worst one-day loss in history.

Finally, Trump has an actual superlative that's true!
I totes missed it. There signs it's because of something specific, or is it just the cavalcade of shit that is this administration finally starting to pile up in a real visible way?
Depends on how much you blame the Trump administration for the continued existence of the boom/bust cycle. Everything since 2012 has been the boom. It's about time for it all to bust and for the rich to get another bailout.

Or, you know, we could strangle capitalism with its own chains instead. I'm willing to keep that one on the table.

If the market saw Trump and decided now was as good a time as any for a bust and eventual bail out, then I'd still end up pinning it on Trump. "The best Bailout ever! Ever!"
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16901 on: February 05, 2018, 08:53:10 pm »

I think it'll be a while until people start downloading the Maoist guerrilla insurgency app and ordering barrels of nitric acid off Amazon, but in the meantime this stock hiccup is a good reminder of just how stupid the forces controlling the economy are.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16902 on: February 05, 2018, 09:15:29 pm »

Quote
Or, you know, we could strangle capitalism with its own chains instead. I'm willing to keep that one on the table.

I like this option, but I'm sure our partisanized population would murder each other over what kind of chain to use while chain manufacturers took out facebook ads designed to keep people fighting and buying chains and chain-related memorabilia.

Do you want to live in the resulting dystopian chainocracy? I don't.
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Akura

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16903 on: February 05, 2018, 09:23:05 pm »

I think it'll be a while until people start downloading the Maoist guerrilla insurgency app and ordering barrels of nitric acid off Amazon, but in the meantime this stock hiccup is a good reminder of just how stupid the forces controlling the economy are.

You might be wrong about that. I checked, and it seems nitric acid is sold out at Amazon.
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #16904 on: February 05, 2018, 10:19:56 pm »

I think it'll be a while until people start downloading the Maoist guerrilla insurgency app and ordering barrels of nitric acid off Amazon, but in the meantime this stock hiccup is a good reminder of just how stupid the forces controlling the economy are.

Why buy nitric acid, when piss is cheap, and suitable catalyst is just an old muffler away?
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