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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3608456 times)

Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17040 on: February 11, 2018, 06:58:44 am »

Statistically sure.
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Jopax

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17041 on: February 11, 2018, 07:04:36 am »

It's a pretty clear case of what-aboutism (or however that's spelled), trying to counterpoint a fallacy won't get you far imo.

Also an apt comment, I'm not sure who exactly said something along the lines of: "The US is a first world country with the highest precentage of people living in third world conditions"
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17042 on: February 11, 2018, 07:09:21 am »

I'm not sure about the "statistically" claim, since then you need absolute statistics to back up the idea that the USA is in fact the best at something on a per-person basis. And saying it's "Systematically" better is just vague, how do you quantify that?

 USA is #31 on life expectancy, and #13 on median wealth per adult (which is a better measure of wealth for the average person than either income, which can be eaten away with costs, or the raw arithmetic mean, which over-represents filthy rich people).

USA statistics for the average person are pretty so-so in terms of advanced nations. You can state similar about the homicide rate, healthcare access and education outcomes, college admission fees. etc etc. I'm not sure which exact measure we're using to say that the USA systematically comes first, for an average citizen.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 07:11:46 am by Reelya »
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Criptfeind

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17043 on: February 11, 2018, 07:17:51 am »

I feel like saying "systematically" means sarcasm here, or at least it's hard to read it as serious. Since I could say systematically El Salvador is the best country in the world. (Under the system where the score is the amount of murders per capita)
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17044 on: February 11, 2018, 07:37:51 am »

Actually, the US economically outperforms among them too. Systematically, the US is still the best country to live in.

That's the thing.  We're the dominant economic force in the world, but that really just means we have a bunch of absurdly rich people along with all our poor people.

Reading Hanslanda's post made me think about my own situation...

I'm 34 and have been living paycheck to paycheck most of my adult life.  My wife has back problems that keep getting worse over time, but we've never had the money to seek proper treatment.  And we have insurance, but that means jack all when you still have to shell thousands out of pocket for anything serious.  It prevents her from working, so I work pretty much all the time anymore to support the family on my income alone.  When I'm not working my normal job, I drive for Uber/Lyft.  I've been working 60-70 hours a week like this for over a year, and when she's having a bad back episode, I take care of her and everyone on top of that.  She was bedridden all of January.  I haven't had time to maintain a social life in a few years, and if I didn't have kids to care for, I wouldn't see much point in living.  I've been slowly killing myself for quite a while by getting just enough sleep to function day by day, because it's the only way I can get any time for myself.  And I live with the awareness that one bad stroke of luck could easily put us on the street.

But you know what... in spite of all that, I recognize that I'm doing relatively well.  That's the fucking horrifying thing.  I could be grateful for what I have, but it feels more appropriate to be angry on behalf of all the people who are doing even worse than this.  There's no excuse for it in a country that is supposedly so great.  If the situation were a product of simply failing to find better ways to do things, it would be different.  But it's not.  It's a product of decades of class war.  Something that has been imposed on us.  Saying that I should be grateful is like saying that I should be grateful my head wasn't bashed in along with my knees, because that's what the thug did to everyone else.  Being thankful is not the proper response.  Taking the thug's fucking bat away is the proper response.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17045 on: February 11, 2018, 07:40:44 am »

Yes, compared to rich world countries (which only a small fraction of the world live in), the USA could be considered sub-par.
Actually, the US economically outperforms among them too. Systematically, the US is still the best country to live in.
People's insistent avoidance of georgia makes parsing things difficult at times, but stateside economic performance means basically shit for ground side conditions. Especially if much of it isn't effecting the lives and lifestyles of parts of the population.

Incidentally, great honking swathes of american economic gains have done roughly fuck and all for giant chunks of the american population. Things probably are better in a number of ways than the 70s, 80s, 90s, or earlier, but it can be real damn hard to see much of that coming from rising economic performance. Lot of that crap is pretty disconnected from much of anything except a balance sheet.

...

also, apropos of something, I actually have known a few people over the course of my life in this area that lived in falling apart buildings (i.e. a shack) that, ferex, had dirt floors, that worked 12+ hour days (if not, that I can recall, in the fields, as that doesn't really need many people to do in most places in the US) and, if not technically lacking (i.e. they weren't going barefoot, but the things were in bad enough shape they might as well have been) shoes for themselves, couldn't afford them for their children. Both great grandmother (now deceased), grandmother, and mother, have all dropped some of their own money a few times to try to get shoes (and other things) for some of the local kids that were particularly bad off. Welcome to rural poverty, folks. I'm actually in one of the nicer shitholes in the country, too.

Also roomed with a fellow that had night terrors due in part to seeing a friend of theirs gang raped to the point said friend died from it afterwards, as a cop just kinda' watched. Let's just say there's some pretty damn shit urban areas, too :-\
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17046 on: February 11, 2018, 08:29:16 am »

One of these days I'm gonna be able to afford a dentist to fix my smashed rear molars I got when my wisdom teeth pushed in... probably.

Though, as I've never been to a dentist--or a doctor outside of a free clinic for some meds to help me get over an abscess on the left rear roof of my mouth last year--I jokingly say that they're going to look at my teeth like I'm an old neglected cat, tut-tut at whoever I am with, and then take me into the back to put me down.

Still, after the... pain isn't the right word to describe a gum abscess... uh... let's go with "oppressive weight of an angry red ball of hatred and fire several kilometers across which was somehow trapped inside of my head" as what I actually mean when I say it hurt... now where was I... oh yeah! When that finally lifted after a period of time which I honestly could not begin to guess the duration of, when the throbbing beat of blood coursing through my skull became audible in between bouts of roaring hatred at the universe I noticed how nice ordinary pain is by comparison, and that has gone away except for occasional spikes of FUCKOFF if I bite something wrong.

So really I have to completely agree that being on the wrong end of decades of class warfare really isn't that bad.

I mean, shit, I was hammering something a couple weeks ago and mis-aimed badly enough to smack my hand right between my index finger and thumb. I've punched enough stuff to know the feel of a slightly cracked and bruised bone in there, and there are times I would have thrown the hammer across the room... but now, it ain't shit, hurray for ordinary pain of the non-searing exposed tooth nerve and infected gum types, right?
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17047 on: February 11, 2018, 08:35:11 am »

Dental care is important, man. There's quite a few studies showing poor dental hygiene, and neglected gum and tooth infections to be a major contributor towards developing cardiovascular diseases, and die of heart failure. Please take care of your teeth better.

For the pain: ibuprofen works better than paracetamol for dental pain.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 08:36:48 am by martinuzz »
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Jopax

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17048 on: February 11, 2018, 08:36:05 am »

It's funny how my country despite being for all intents and purposes a slowly degrading mess of corruption and nepotism has suprisingly cheap healthcare in most instances. Hell, even private practice dental is accessible to pretty much everyone for regular checkups and servicing. I had two teeth fixed a couple weeks back, nothing major, some cleaning out and fillings all set me back a grand total of 50-ish bucks. So consider finding cheap travel to south eastern europe to get your teeth fixed up as a viable alternative since I've heard folks from europe doing such things (tho obviously it's way cheaper to get here from say france or belgium than it is from the US)
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17049 on: February 11, 2018, 08:39:07 am »

Dental care is important, man. There's quite a few studies showing poor dental hygiene, and neglected gum and tooth infections to be a major contributor towards developing cardiovascular diseases, and die of heart failure. Please take care of your teeth better.
Oh, I know, and I was doing pretty well considering the no dentist thing... but like I said, wisdom teeth cracked the top rear molars when they came in, and well... dentistry is for some strange reason priced like it's an optional procedure in most parts of the US.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17050 on: February 11, 2018, 08:39:10 am »

Dental checkups and restorative work are in the basic (mandatory) healthcare insurance package here.
The only reason over here people don't go to the dentist, is phobia for dentists.

The caveat that if you miss checkups for, I think, two years, insurance won't pay the next restorative work.

Oh if you're wondering, basic healthcare insurance costs around 150 euros per month, a bit less if you live off social minimum. It covers basically everything that isn't cosmetic. There is a yearly sum of maximum 350 euros 'personal risk fee' that you have to pay if you use specific types of healthcare. Basic healthcare, like visits to the doctor's office are excluded, they don't have a personal risk.
Again, for social minima, there's special deals between healthcare insurances and local city governments that alleviate the costs for those.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 08:45:09 am by martinuzz »
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17051 on: February 11, 2018, 08:40:38 am »

snip

This is pretty classic "But other people have it worse, so shut up and sip your gruel" nonsense.

The reason americans are so outraged at the deep, systemic failings, the poverty, the corruption, and the police isn't because "We have it the worst on earth".
It's because they're "meant to" have it the best. America is the big fish in the pool, the economic powerhouse, the mover and shaker, home to vast, unimaginable wealth. The country holds itself above every other nation in the world as a pinnacle of existance, the ultimate goal of every country to imitate. This is the message america tells itself, its citizens, and the world every moment of every day.

And that's why, I feel they're perpetually angry even though they obviously have it better than some people in active warzones in the third world. Because even as the ivory-tower megabillionaires and giant corporations are rolling in money, so many hundreds of thousands, million even, of them are desperately working themselves to the limits for miniscule wages over long hours in exploitative contracts, and for all the financial times says America is winning, they sure dont feel like it.



Forgive me if you think that, as a brit, I've misrepesented you, americans. This is just the impression ive gathered over the years of discussion with you all
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17052 on: February 11, 2018, 08:43:35 am »

Dental checkups and restorative work are in the basic (mandatory) healthcare insurance package here.
The only reason over here people don't go to the dentist, is phobia for dentists.

The caveat that if you miss checkups for, I think, two years, insurance won't pay the next restorative work.

Oh if you're wondering, basic healthcare insurance costs around 150 euros per month, a bit less if you live off social minimum. It covers basically everything that isn't cosmetic.
Yeah, meanwhile we've got a bunch of shitbags in congress twiddling imaginary villain moustaches and talking about how it's really a good thing for them to try and finish defunding/sabotaging the ACA system, but at least I didn't even bother with anything but the antibiotics because if there is one thing which is really easy to get lots of from our medical system, it's opioids.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17053 on: February 11, 2018, 08:47:50 am »

Don't use antibiotics unless absolutely and strictly nescessary, unless you like cultivating resistant strains.
I am 39, and have had antibiotics thrice in my life. I already consider that much.

Medical professionals should have 'only prescribe antibiotics as a last resort' as their base rule, or they're not worth their profession.

(Sadly, more and more new generation doctors over here are also a bit too eager with prescribing antibiotics. MRSA is a problem in Europe, too.)
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Max™

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17054 on: February 11, 2018, 08:49:26 am »

An abscess damn near the size of a golf ball was a good use, and once the fucker subsided I was done with them.
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