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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3599942 times)

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18795 on: April 05, 2018, 08:19:27 pm »

Hitler did care about the technology to carry out the war, but he was a military man by profession. That doesn't imply that he wanted or needed detailed accounts of what happens in concentration camps to prisoners. He cared about things that would help win the war. Those details wouldn't help with him winning the war.

sure, Hitler was hands-on with some things. But given that you can only be involved in so many pies that doesn't imply he was hands-on with everything. That just wouldn't make sense. Normally, leaders who are hands-on with a specific aspect have less attention for other aspects, not more. Hitler probably knew the abstract details of the Final Solution, but I'm pretty certain he wouldn't want to hear any specifics. Just like hearing that 1000 of people in an earthquake in some third-world country doesn't affect us emotionally like a smaller tragedy closer to home would.

Wait hold the phone. This is the first time I've heard someone using the "he was only giving orders" defense.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18796 on: April 05, 2018, 08:40:12 pm »


Wait hold the phone. This is the first time I've heard someone using the "he was only giving orders" defense.

It's not a defense, it's a response to "how could Hitler be a vegan?" type thing. I was pointing out how compartmentalized such things tend to be. Hitler's held up as some sort of Avatar of Evil, where literally people act like they don't believe he could have done normal everyday things or have held a range of views on things.

EDIT: notably, people tend to project things they think are "bad" as the "default Hitler mentality". See for example that liberals project conservative things as the "default" things expected for Hitler to believe, whereas conservatives tend to project liberal things onto Hitler, e.g. you can find conservative sources who cite Hitler's great evil by pointing out that he was a Godless, "big government", gun-control nut who believed in veganism and abortions. clear signs of his great evil. This is a sign that Hitler is a coat-hook on which you can hang pretty much whatever you want. To liberals, Hitler is the Arch-Conservative, and to Conservatives, he's the Arch-Liberal.

Anything Hitler did or believed, he must have by definition done in the evil-est way possible. This seems to be how people really think. e.g. people believe that Hitler must have had every operational detail of death camps right down to the gruesomest of details. I'm just saying I don't believe that's true in the slightest. People overseeing such evil protect themselves both physically and emotionally by deliberately not prying too far into the details. Like I said, the closest metaphor is to CEOs who oversee multinational companies guilty of human rights abuses, while they themselves keep a clean image and play golf with Presidents.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 09:15:01 pm by Reelya »
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18797 on: April 05, 2018, 09:00:43 pm »

That said, he was on a personal vendetta against the Jews, and felt that they deserved all the pain and death coming to them.

But yeah, still very much a human, for whatever that means.

Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18798 on: April 05, 2018, 09:28:53 pm »

The reason we only hear the horror stories about the guillotine, and not the details that the old regime boiled people alive is that this time it was nobles getting the chop. That's literally the only logical reason to demonize that method in particular.
"Literally the only logical reason to demonize that method in particular." U wot, I'm choking to death here m8
The reason we hear the horror stories about the guillotine was because it was well-documented and it involved "audience participation," in which thousands of lucky participants were executed every month for being political enemies by the most efficient guillotine. It's bizarre to treat everyone who died criticizing the excesses of these times to suggest that everyone who criticized the guillotine was an agent of the ancien regime whose humanity was tied solely to their loyalty to aristocracy; be that it is, for that was the kinda justification used to eradicate entire French populations for being enemies of the state, people who were clearly not fucking aristocrats :P. During the Revolution Controversy, defendants against the consolidating power of France's future tyrants used this argumentation to defend their mass executions. When critics lambasted the farce of the humane execution of the guillotine; the same tyrants would bring up the same bullshit about perspective. Their contemporaries found it disgraceful, yet it seems too much of today's states are willing to ignore it because they trace their roots to this liberal revolution ;P

It's well proper sneaky to pretend "humane by comparison to boiling alive" is the same as "humane." The liberal leaders of France's revolution and her critics abroad were both united in the ludicrous farce of fighting for freedom only to see terror and tyranny reign. Don't pretend this never happened, or it was all for nothing. The true horror lurking in the claims that the guillotine was the humane method is blood well apparent to everyone who lived under its yoke, its ease of use and who imagined they could be - and often would be, next. Seeing it hanging high, without even considering the actual horror stories they made, of accounts of those whose heads retained some semblance of cognizance upon severance. And then there's the scale... Where before the crowd could witness the spectacle of seeing one noble go through ceremony and pomp before having the swordsman lop his head off, in order to retain the same spectacle with a much more unceremonious execution, more people had to be executed to grant the crowd the same spectacle. Entire lines now, one after the other, people gone in rows.

Also, look up the English list of death-penalty offenses nicknamed the "bloody code" which is contemporary with the Napoleonic Code. It's pretty interesting stuff, and an example of how the victors write the history:
Yeah, so English jurors had to rig the system so that paupers weren't mandatorily executed for stealing a few pence. These are the guys cited as the good guys against the murderous French revolutionaries. But of course the English are in the clear here, because the people being executed were the poor, not nobles. Remember, at the very time the guillotines were running, the UK was loading the Irish into plague-ridden ships and sending them as slave labour to Australia.
It's not my fault if American history is inundated with the mentality of good guys vs bad guys, I didn't write this stuff ;).
But I can write for the UK's perspective here, with what limited knowledge I have. Here it is not seen as good guys vs bad guys, but the conflict between revolutionary and not setting your country on fire maintaining your continuity.
The controversy was over the French Revolutionaries' willingness to overturn the entirety of their inherited institutions in order to enforce their liberty; the English argued that the destruction of all their institutions had eradicated the privileges and liberties they had inherited, whilst removing every institution which safeguarded their liberty, placing it in the hands of politicians. With all the institutions to which people owed their liberty to deleted, no one would need to owe any loyalty to the state for any reason, thus the only reason left to be loyal to the state would be violence. History has vindicated this view, as every time French citizens did point out they had no reason to be loyal to the new state, the French state eradicated them. The vast majority of indentured servants and convicts sent to Australia were sourced from Britain, not Ireland, for what it's worth (as it seems British convicts are not as worthy as others in American textbooks :|), while in regard to ship conditions, "plague-ridden" is anachronistic, and the UK was the first nation in the world to regulate sanitation aboard transportation vessels so that they weren't typhus-ridden immigrant traps. The USA followed suit 16 years after the UK.

Lastly, ignoring that English jurors were deliberately allowing paupers to ignore the laws the jurors were supposed to follow is a rather nice parallel for the Revolution controversy itself. The British with their unwritten constitution had absolute flexibility in exercising the law for the benefit of its people and its freedom; contrast the French Revolutionaries with their written constitution, a supposed guarantee of liberty.

In both cases, the French did as you do now, pointing to how the Revolutionaries had a nicer piece of paper detailing how humane and wonderful they were. The English pieces of paper by contrast, were not nearly as nice sounding (besides the Magna Carta, which is pretty peng), yet they treated them as that - mere pieces of paper. I believe a similar conundrum can be viewed in how the French juror could not disobey his own constitutional law in the manner the English juror could, or in how Americans today in [ insert subtle political commentary here ] struggle to make reforms in favour of modernizing American law vs breaking the American constitution.

Yet revisionist historians tell you the English juror is the villain for not having the nicer piece of paper, despite not being the one executing his country to death! ;P

In that same concept, I've always found the slaughters of Timur fascinating. For the first decade of Timur's rule, his wars seemed almost pointless, rarely gaining any ground. In reality, they served a much different purpose- they tested loyalties

-snip-

It does make you wonder how one could be so lenient to their own people, yet so ruthless to others.
Spicy history. Reminds me of the Rashidun Caliphate, which had much of the same problem. Many of its inner-conflicts were solved by keeping the warlike and quarreling tribes expanding ever-outwards with more conquests, many of which didn't serve to really benefit the Caliphate besides some abstract notion of expansion. But they were effective at keeping the quarreling tribes busy, and when the conquests stopped happening, the quarrels turned into civil war.

Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18799 on: April 05, 2018, 09:35:59 pm »

people who were clearly not fucking aristocrats

Sure, people who were not artistocrats also got executed. But that's entirely beside the point.

The reason the French Revolution and the guillotine are so remembered is only because nobles were executed. If the same execution method was enacted but not used on nobles, nobody would even accord it a footnote in history. e.g. far, far worse methods were enacted, yet none of them have the same newsworthiness as the guillotine. e.g. like I said, they had mandatory sentences before that such as boiling counterfeiters alive. Nobody makes a point of talking about how bad that was.

Also note that the only popular stories about how terrible it was involve specifically aristocrats getting the chop. Literally none of the other nations gave a flying fuck about a bunch of non-nobles who got it too. We only give a shit now because the nobles are attached to that specific story.

Also, bringing up public executions as some sort of special horror of the revolution seems a bit weird. Virtually every European nation was doing that sort of thing in that period, it was perfectly average. For example, England stopped doing public executions from 1868 onwards (when they were moved inside prisons), well after the period in question. You can read for example, that pickpockets were publically executed in England up until 1808, which was when they started scaling back the sheer number of offenses met with public hanging in England, which could include boys as young as 7 years old.

The number of death sentences handed out by England from 1770-1830 was double the number handed out during the French revolutionary period. Though I'm not sure of the conversion rate for France from sentence to execution. I'd suspect that the ancien regime rate of killing was similar to England around the period.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 10:02:41 pm by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18800 on: April 05, 2018, 10:05:33 pm »

Sure, people who were not artistocrats also got executed. But that's entirely beside the point.

The reason the French Revolution and the guillotine are so remembered is only because nobles were executed. If the same execution method was enacted but not used on nobles, nobody would even accord it a footnote in history. e.g. far, far worse methods were enacted, yet none of them have the same newsworthiness as the guillotine. e.g. like I said, they had mandatory sentences before that such as boil counterfeiters alive. Nobody makes a point of talking about how bad that was.

Also note that the only popular stories about how terrible it was involve specifically aristocrats getting the chop. Literally none of the other nations gave a flying fuck about a bunch of non-nobles who got it too. We only give a shit now because the nobles are attached to that specific story.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The British alone were sympathetic to the French Revolutionaries curtailing Catholic, Absolutist monarchs as they themselves had done. They held no loyalty to the foreign aristocracy the French held (and it was Catholic lmao), it was when the French started the terror and were executing thousands of innocent civilians or massacring whole towns and conscripting the survivors that the British were deebly conberned. And the British were just one country! Thus I would not believe revisionist bs about how abloo bloo bloo ignore this massacre because people only care about aristocrats, when you have people who clearly cared not for the status of French aristocracy complaining about all the death going on.

The word terrorism was first recorded as being used in this period, to describe the particular style of governance of the Revolutionary government during the terror. To criticize the revolution or the terror of the mass summary executions, was to invite summary execution. You'd have to ignore or pretty creatively reinterpret all the cartoons, letters, pamphlets and speeches from neighbouring European countries decrying the execution of clearly harmless men and women to come to the conclusion that no one gave a flying fuck about everyone getting murdered. In the reign of terror, hundreds of thousands of people were arrested, tens of thousands executed by guillotine, more just executed with whatever, more massacred, about as much died in prison as were executed - it was something European nation states had never seen before, even with the inquisition, a large scale inwards-destruction directed against everyone not deemed revolutionary enough.

You can bet France's neighbours were bloody well concerned, and it weren't just because nobles and papists got the chop. Regular people of Western and Central European countries at this point were reading newspapers - a recent development of their time, both in an ordinary literate populace, and in the innovation of a literary piece keeping everyone up to date on current affairs, and that is by far already a thousand times more significant to why we remember what happened to the ordinary people. They weren't a footnote in the King's execution, they were the story. Hell, the Americans were reacting to the same shit, and there's no bloody way in hell you can sell me the idea that the American Revolutionaries only cared about the Terror because they were secretly in love with French Aristocrats
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 10:08:59 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18801 on: April 05, 2018, 10:14:03 pm »

The number of death sentences handed out by England from 1770-1830 was double the number handed out during the French revolutionary period. Though I'm not sure of the conversion rate for France from sentence to execution. I'd suspect that the ancien regime rate of killing was similar to England around the period.
So the UK, in 60 years, managed to double the number of executions that the French managed in one. This comparison is horribly misleading.
It's worse - in the UK in that time period, most of the death sentences given were not carried out.
Quote
Between 1770 and 1830, an estimated 35,000 death sentences were handed down in England and Wales, of which 7,000 executions were carried out.
By contrast, the Committee of Public Safety in France suspended the defendant's right to a public trial, or legal assistance, and gave the jury the choice of either acquitting the defendant or executing them.
Thus the UK defendant would have their public trial, legal assistance, and have the option of having their conviction be lessened in punishment or conviction, but the French juror was bound by law to execute the defendant if found guilty, and the defendant was not allowed a fair trial, and later, not allowed a trial.

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*EDIT
Oh yeah, and that wikipedia is listing the official number of executions, the ones recorded by the French state. The number of executions carried out in one year was actually much higher
Quote
Between the two summers of 1793 and 1794 more than 50,000 people were killed for suspected counter-revolutionary activity or so-called “crimes against liberty”. One-third of this number died under the falling blade of the guillotine.
So yeah 50,000 executions without trial in 1 year vs 7,000 executions with trial over 60 years

JACOBINS
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 10:25:15 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18802 on: April 05, 2018, 10:21:34 pm »

Who is concerned about nobles getting killed? The death of the absolute monarchies was a good thing. No gods, no kings!
Just because hitler was vegan doesn't make all vegans hitler, if that's the kind of line of thinking you're implying.
Didn't know he was, but color me unsurprised: vegetarians are what people eat, vegans decided they didn't want to be food and went the wrong way from "not food due to cannibalism taboo" towards "unsavory garbage like offal and industrial waste" but they're still better than antivaccination cuntbags... though there is overlap.
I know little of the current leadership in China beyond the rather alarming admiration Trump had for the dude over there declaring himself president for life...
They still have presidential terms. e.g. if the USA removed term limits on the president would you say Trump declared himself "president for life"?
[snipped explanation and information which is irrelevant as you missed the key thrust of my statement]
Never mind all of that, Trump thinks he did, and was speaking of it positively. I like facts and knowledge, I don't need to be told to check sources, it's a habit. Trump might as well be a very opinionated toddler, and he thinks it's cool when strongman fuckers concentrate power.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18803 on: April 05, 2018, 10:42:26 pm »

I think the vast majority of the French revolution executions were in the rebelling provinces. The put downs were pretty brutal. One guy was loading people onto rafts and then sinking them to drown them on mass. I think the guillotine execution by contrast were the smaller percent of total.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 11:24:11 pm by redwallzyl »
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18804 on: April 05, 2018, 11:10:39 pm »

... have the option of having their conviction be lessened in punishment or conviction, but the French juror was bound by law to execute the defendant if found guilty

Uh, not according to a thing called the Judgement of Death Act 1823.

Quote
The Judgement of Death Act 1823 (c.48; repealed) was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom (although it did not apply to Scotland). Passed at a time when there were over 200 offences in English law which carried a mandatory sentence of death, it gave judges the discretion to pass a lesser sentence for the first time.

This is pretty unambiguous. In the UK, the ~220 offenses that carried the death penalty had a mandatory death sentence. It's pretty clear that was the case since a specific law was passed to overturn that one thing. You are right however that often they'd indefinitely delay the actual carrying out of the sentence, but the sentence itself was mandatory if found guilty. also those 35,000 people convicted of mandatory death sentences in England almost all happened in the 1770-1808 period, not the full 60 years of 1770-1830, since from 1808 onward they started heavily scaling the whole thing back. The peak period for this was the late 1700s.

I think the wast majority of the French revolution executions were in the rebelling provinces. The put downs were pretty brutal. One guy was loading people onto rafts and then sinking them to drown them on mass. I think the guillotine execution by contrast were the smaller percent of total.

Yeah, also, whether a particular method of execution is more humane than another has no relation to how many people are killed by each method. e.g. being boiled alive is clearly worse than being guillotined. Which method is "more humane" only makes sense in a 1:1 comparison: e.g. it makes little sense to argue that boiling alive is more humane than being beheaded, just because less people were boiled alive than beheaded.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 11:17:37 pm by Reelya »
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18805 on: April 05, 2018, 11:15:18 pm »

The choppy thing is vastly less expensive than the boiling thing, allowing one to kill many more people, creating overall more inhumanity.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18806 on: April 05, 2018, 11:21:57 pm »

The vast majority of the expense in conducting death sentences isn't in the actual act itself. I doubt that hanging vs guillotine would make a huge amount of difference in cost. e.g. if the French had settled on hanging the same as the British then I doubt we'd be hearing so much about it even if they killed the exact same amount. e.g. the English speaking world touts the horrors of the guillotine while hand-waving away thousands hung to death because hanging is what we did, and beheading is what the enemy did. Hanging can also be a little more unpleasant, slower, painful and error-prone.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 11:31:45 pm by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18807 on: April 05, 2018, 11:41:40 pm »

I really don't see the point of this discussion.
Boozy history of the shared history of mankind as displayed through civil discussion?

Bants

In a word, bants

But enough from me, I shut up now

Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18808 on: April 05, 2018, 11:53:12 pm »

I'm mostly just confused about the "who were worse- the British or the French?" bit.
During the French Revolution, they were the two principal powers fighting not just militarily, economically and politically, but also fighting on the very principles of governance which underpin the modern world. Their divergent views were never resolved, which subsequently meant that as the Anglo-French Empires spread their divergent ideas across the world, and the Americans split between the federalists and anti-federalists who supported either side of the Anglo-French models (and subsequently blobbed across the world), this meant that this controversy endured hundreds of years to remain to this day, and remain until some other world hegemon blobs. This can still be seen in other forms, such as arguments over whether the US constitution can and should be amended

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18809 on: April 06, 2018, 04:57:51 am »

Reelya s been using misleading data to make a point that the British were somehow extra super evil compared to the poor misunderstood mass murdering revolutionaries though, which isn’t really helping
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