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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3588600 times)

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19860 on: May 15, 2018, 01:55:22 pm »

Stoning is a cultural mainstay there Reelya.  Keep that in mind.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19861 on: May 15, 2018, 02:00:46 pm »

Besides, using the entire range of recorded history (at least when writing systems got started) and then some? Come on.

Stoning is a cultural mainstay there Reelya.  Keep that in mind.

Pretty sure Christians stoned heretics and witches once upon a time, though burning was the preferred.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19862 on: May 15, 2018, 02:00:56 pm »

Stoning is a cultural mainstay there Reelya.  Keep that in mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5YU_spBw0
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19863 on: May 15, 2018, 02:10:00 pm »

Stoning is a cultural mainstay there Reelya.  Keep that in mind.

No actually, it's not. Turns out if you actually check, that's the literal opposite of the truth. The Israeli state has authorized two executions since it's inception and religious leaders in Judaism have long since given up their authority for such a thing. They actively oppose the concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism#Contemporary_attitudes_towards_capital_punishment

Those barbarians.

However, here in the enlightened lands, 31 US states allow capital punishment. 6 of those allow the electric chair, where your eyeballs will melt while you are still alive.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19864 on: May 15, 2018, 02:14:02 pm »

Besides, using the entire range of recorded history (at least when writing systems got started) and then some? Come on.

Well, that's as far back as the trauma on available skulls indicates a higher than average rate of violent death (with the usual caveats about forensic interpretation). This holds true for more recent periods of history too, although their collection didn't have any usable skulls from later than 1917.

So...yes, actually. Over the entire range of recorded history, there hasn't been, as far as we can determine archaeologically, a period during which the rates of violent death in the Middle East were not significantly higher than the global average, so we lack for historical examples of a peaceful Middle East with which to inform our conception of what one might look like in the future (and, therefore, in what direction to aim our foreign policy efforts). It has been unified, certainly, but unity is not peace.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19865 on: May 15, 2018, 02:18:58 pm »

Stoning is a cultural mainstay there Reelya.  Keep that in mind.

No actually, it's not. Turns out if you actually check, that's the literal opposite of the truth. The Israeli state has authorized two executions since it's inception and religious leaders in Judaism have long since given up their authority for such a thing. They actively oppose the concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism#Contemporary_attitudes_towards_capital_punishment

Those barbarians.

However, here in the enlightened lands, 31 US states allow capital punishment. 6 of those allow the electric chair, where your eyeballs will melt while you are still alive.

Israel is not the middle east.

Israel is PART of the middle east, but the middle east is not part of Israel.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19866 on: May 15, 2018, 02:33:26 pm »

Also, remember Trekkin's sample all comes from one small region: mostly the West Bank. We don't know how generalizable that is. e.g. have excavations in Syria found the same thing? They dig skulls up in other places.

So it's not clear whether that's automatically generalizable to cover an arbitrary region we call "middle east" spanning from Egypt, and Turkey to Persia or not, or how that compares with data from other places. After all, I've met some Israelis, and they have some ... weird ideas about history. e.g. in Australia they used to have a doctrine called "terra nullius" e.g. basically denying there were any humans owning the land here before we got here. And guess what - Israelis I've met have basically used the exact same "terra nullius" argument to justify taking over Palestine that us Australians used to use to justify taking the land over from the aboriginals. The parallels in thinking astounded me. e.g. Israeli citizens I've met has some weird propaganda stuff going on in what they're taught, similar to previous colonial racist stuff that my own country has largely put behind us and rejected as nonsense. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for some Israeli research to be published which exagerrated how "brutal and savage" the area was before they got there, it would fit with some of their other biases. even if there was one Palestinian researcher involved in the survey, I'm sure the Israeli government is pulling the strings on what gets funding and what gets published.

e.g. I'd like to see independent skull-data from a range of places before believing that any one point-source by a single research group tells us anything about how one region compares to another. It might well be that murder rates are just much higher in pre-industrial societies. e.g. England's murder rate was 10 times higher before industrialization, and places such as Palestine didn't really industrialize until very recently, if at all.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 02:40:26 pm by Reelya »
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19867 on: May 15, 2018, 02:36:56 pm »

Israel is not the middle east.

Israel is PART of the middle east, but the middle east is not part of Israel.

Do you wanna be the one to tell them that?

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19868 on: May 15, 2018, 02:44:28 pm »

Israel is not the middle east.

Israel is PART of the middle east, but the middle east is not part of Israel.

Do you wanna be the one to tell them that?

Ah, I misunderstood then. Apologies.

Quote
Israel is PART of the middle east, but the middle east is not part of Israel.

This made me chuckle, though.

Regardless, it's telling that these folks who live in one of the most violent modern-day areas on the planet and are more progressive than we are in the area of death as a means of punishment.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 02:46:32 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19869 on: May 15, 2018, 02:58:38 pm »

... in some ways, maybe. Can't remember many times in the last long while than even our astoundingly shitty police opened fire on a crowd with live ammunition.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19870 on: May 15, 2018, 02:59:43 pm »

You have no trouble bombing entire countries for acts of terrorism though. Or holding and torturing terrorist suspects without trial or legal assistance.
Besides, you can't compare US police vs domestic riots to Israeli army vs (what they, the US, the EU and some other nations regard as) a terrorist organisation (Hamas).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:06:37 pm by martinuzz »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19871 on: May 15, 2018, 03:06:49 pm »

I think it was the West Virginia coal mining thing. We used machine guns there, that was what..... the 30's? Definitely the 1900s.

We do still drone-kill civilians, just not our own.

You have no trouble bombing entire countries for acts of terrorism though. Or holding and torturing terrorist suspects without trial or legal assistance.
Besides, you can't compare US police vs domestic riots to Israeli army vs (what they, the US, the EU and some other nations regard as) a terrorist organisation (Hamas).


My drone comment was ninja'd by this.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19872 on: May 15, 2018, 03:26:05 pm »

You have no trouble bombing entire countries for acts of terrorism though. Or holding and torturing terrorist suspects without trial or legal assistance.
Besides, you can't compare US police vs domestic riots to Israeli army vs (what they, the US, the EU and some other nations regard as) a terrorist organisation (Hamas).
Pretty sure you can when the people getting murdered are mostly unarmed civilians participating in something between a protest and prison riot. Domestic riot and policing action is what this shit was unless you're indulging in quantum palestine junk.

Any case, point's generally that whatever israel's policy on capital punishment is (and regardless what the US's many sins on the subject are) they're pretty damn willing to resort to death as a punishment. Progressive on the subject the right-wing folks indulging in what's either collective punishment against what's de facto their citizens or war crimes against a foreign nation ain't.

... might be able to make the argument it's still better than the US but at that point you're mired in shit and trying to argue one side of you is less encrusted than the other. Maybe don't consider either side progressive on the subject until the crap stops getting poured.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19873 on: May 15, 2018, 03:44:12 pm »

I don't think it's a mire to define the capital punishment thing. They don't do it. We do.

Additionally, they fire on people who are firing on them with guns, molotovs, etc, and we fire machine guns into crowds of civilians over a worker's dispute and accidentally mow down like 350 civilians and 150 children in other nations. In comparing the last 100 years, we fall short. I also agree that its 100% different to fight using lethal force against people who are actively trying to kill/invade you (from one perspective, mind you), and police firing into crowds of peacefully protesting civilians.

The reasons and triggers for these events are complex, but the idea that we as a nation (and completely independant from political leanings) routinely engage in the barbaric behavior that we accuse the middle east of is not.

Plenty of the states that allow the death penalty are not predominantly right wing. California and Oregon some to mind. Trying to pin it on the right is disingenuous.
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Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol: new thread subtitle pending
« Reply #19874 on: May 15, 2018, 03:47:28 pm »

Pretty sure Christians stoned heretics and witches once upon a time, though burning was the preferred.
Burning was a protestant thing. Other Christians weren't very much into that, going for other methods instead.
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