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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3532477 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21450 on: July 03, 2018, 07:10:42 pm »

True, there's huge overlap all over the place, but the discussion on an EU military has firmly left American politics, unless you want American politics involved in it or something.
Well that's the thing, where Presidents have short term memories, the US's national services have less so. One of the things which the EU isolation of Trump has revealed is that the European nations are increasingly growing independent of the USA's influence, and while it is not yet a nation, the European Union is alongside China the only other entity which can one day usurp American world hegemony.
I'm intrigued to know what Americans on freedom day think of the EU isolating American under Trump, and the ramifications of the EU even being able to do so where 30 year ago that would be laughable sit in the US consciousness. I'm reminded of the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, and how a patchwork of irrelevant princedoms rapidly turned into a world-contender, and now the EU takes yurop clay and turns them into a superstate to rival Washington. Will the Euro become the world's reserve currency? Who knows, spaghettios

Also unironically happy freedom day

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21451 on: July 03, 2018, 07:16:39 pm »

Much like Gen X, Europe is gonna get out from under the thumb just in time to die.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21452 on: July 03, 2018, 07:28:42 pm »

I've definetly noticed that since Trumps election. If anything, it's more that Trumps tough love (if you can call it that) is forcing Europe to realize how much they still use the US as a crutch or just follow for things like foriegn policy and that they need to rely on each other more and forge their own path.

Much like Gen X, Europe is gonna get out from under the thumb just in time to die.

If it survives this stage, then it should survive pretty well.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21453 on: July 03, 2018, 08:19:55 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
.

edit:
This should probably move the the Europe thread at this point. Not much American politics left in the discussion.
Yeah, sorry. If I'd have seen a Europe thread start recently, I might have read it and considered posting something like the above above in it, but obviously if there is one it's thankfully below my radar.

(And I doubt anything I just said above is going to be welcome there.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 08:24:24 pm by Starver »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21454 on: July 03, 2018, 09:52:14 pm »

Pfft at Mike Conaway in the article, it's binary, if you're working to make someone lose in a two person race, you're thus working to help the other person win.

Still unknown is whether Trump and co. actually broke any laws while doing it because 'collusion' isn't a legal crime. Plus whether they didn't know what they were doing or if they did and just didn't give a damn.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21455 on: July 04, 2018, 12:46:55 am »

Well, I mean, in theory...

More to the point, if Trump knowingly cooperated with the Russians, he's potentially party to anything they did.  Election tampering IS a crime.

Plus, you know, the difference between "collusion" and "treason" hinges on the definition of two words.  Those being "enemy" and "aid".  Its unlikely that what Trump did constitutes treason, and the chance of him being found guilty of treason is essentially nill (even if the democrats were trying him; got to keep up appearances).  Still, thin line for such a serious crime.

And in the end none of it matters because if he does get impeached its 80% likely that it will be for lying under oath rather than any past crime.  That's what the precedent is.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21456 on: July 04, 2018, 12:53:40 am »

How does lying under oath work for a president?
Is that only when lying to congress / senate committee, or at any time?
I mean, the president swears an oath when he's inaugurated, to uphold the constitution and all, but does the presidential oath include being truthful?
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21457 on: July 04, 2018, 01:51:31 am »

In the US if you're a witness at a trial you take an oath to tell the truth.  You don't actually have to answer any questions at a trial, but if you do and you knowingly lie its a crime.

If Trump answers questions from Mueller he'll take a similar oath.  The difference AFAIK is the special counsel is more serious, he DOES have to answer.  Although his answer can still be something useless like "I don't know."  Except, then, if it could be proven that he DID know the answer to the question... yeah.  The way Clinton's special counsel got him is by asking him questions about whether he had sex with his secretary.  Clinton tried to dodge answering and eventually it was proven that he lied.  Note: if he had just said "yes I did" it wouldn't have been impeachable, just scandalous.

Nixon resigned instead of being impeached, so we'll never know what would have got him (if anything).  The impeachment process is difficult, long, and political.

Edit: technically tho I think what they called it with Clinton is "obstruction of justice" not "lying under oath".  The oath is still the important bit, right now Trump can tweet as many statements as he wants relating to the investigation and legally they don't have to be true.  When/if he sits down in front of Mueller, that changes
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 01:53:56 am by EnigmaticHat »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21458 on: July 04, 2018, 04:40:36 am »

Although his answer can still be something useless like "I don't know."  Except, then, if it could be proven that he DID know the answer to the question... yeah.
Hence, I presume the infamous "I do not recall, Senator", popularised (at least for me) through Oliver North's hearings, aftee the Iran Contra thing broke.

Even if it can be proven that one did know, and moreover that one later manage to recollect that information again, it is shaky ground trying to establish that this information was capable of being recited at the time of that crucial question, past whatever mental block might 'involuntarily' be impeding the witness, or how rusted-to-insignificance the synaptic record may be (both of these being reversible phenomena, but not just like that under the pressure of Senate Hearing, sorry guys!)...
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21459 on: July 04, 2018, 05:59:12 am »

Hence, I presume the infamous "I do not recall, Senator"
Wouldn't that olpen a path to remove him from office because, senility?
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Grim Portent

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21460 on: July 04, 2018, 06:36:53 am »

Hence, I presume the infamous "I do not recall, Senator"
Wouldn't that olpen a path to remove him from office because, senility?

Likely not, forgetting things happens to people all the time, it's not a great indicator for senility unless the person frequently does it or displays other signs of going senile.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21461 on: July 04, 2018, 05:12:47 pm »

Word is that Trump might announce the SCOTUS nominee either tomorrow or Friday instead of next Monday.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21462 on: July 04, 2018, 05:16:18 pm »

Venezuela war when
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21463 on: July 04, 2018, 05:21:00 pm »

Word is that Trump might announce the SCOTUS nominee either tomorrow or Friday instead of next Monday.
Maybe Putin made his decision ahead of schedule?
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21464 on: July 04, 2018, 05:31:58 pm »

They're reporting he said that last year, when he also mused out loud about maybe military intervention.

I can get where he would have been coming from as far as wanting to do something and fix it, but our track record of intervention via military hasn't exactly been stellar. That alone is a good reason to not do it unless perhaps we have the backing of allies (which we don't). There is of course our past of treating South America like our personal stomping grounds, and Trump just shows that some people still think of it like that where we could do what we want with impunity.

If there was the backing of regional allies to do something, then sure, but Colombia doesn't have great relations with Venezuela, Brazil is dealing with their own problems, and Argentina is too far away. And on top of that, none of them have great trust in Trump and I'm sure you can guess why.

Word is that Trump might announce the SCOTUS nominee either tomorrow or Friday instead of next Monday.
Maybe Putin made his decision ahead of schedule?

Ha ha at your joke, but yeah, Trump very well could have decided to move ahead sooner.
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