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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 968128 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21540 on: June 12, 2018, 03:31:28 pm »

However, as things stand as far as third parties making any headway in this political system, they'd have to do what Trump did, wear the jersey (or skin if you want to get macabre) of either major party and run as that while not really being that. Trump showed that method was wildly successful, so, I'd expect other candidates in the future to follow that route.

I've been seeing stuff go around that the DNC is trying to take steps to prevent this from happening again.  More stringent requirements on affiliation to qualify for running in D primaries.
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21541 on: June 12, 2018, 03:31:47 pm »

All I'm saying is, give me an option. Give me any option that's more likely to bring the country to a better place than the Democrats, and I'll vote for them. Hell, I'll volunteer for them.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21542 on: June 12, 2018, 03:37:30 pm »

However, as things stand as far as third parties making any headway in this political system, they'd have to do what Trump did, wear the jersey (or skin if you want to get macabre) of either major party and run as that while not really being that. Trump showed that method was wildly successful, so, I'd expect other candidates in the future to follow that route.

I've been seeing stuff go around that the DNC is trying to take steps to prevent this from happening again.  More stringent requirements on affiliation to qualify for running in D primaries.

Sounds like they're trying to become more like European political parties? All I've seen was that they just pledge to be Democrat before running. Also, setting requirements for affiliation is just going to hurt them in the long run.

The easiest way IMO to prevent stuff like Trump wearing the skin of and puppeting the Republican party is to allow third parties to actually participate fully in the proccess. The fact that third parties can't get headway is exactly why Trump did what he did.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21543 on: June 12, 2018, 03:40:17 pm »

All I'm saying is, give me an option. Give me any option that's more likely to bring the country to a better place than the Democrats, and I'll vote for them. Hell, I'll volunteer for them.

Your only other option are the Republicans. I get what you're saying about options and third parties, but the political environment as it is right now means that the two main parties have a stranglehold on the system and neither wants to let go.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21544 on: June 12, 2018, 03:40:50 pm »

All I'm saying is, give me an option. Give me any option that's more likely to bring the country to a better place than the Democrats, and I'll vote for them. Hell, I'll volunteer for them.
I'm glad you asked. (Note the membership explosion)

So get out there and primary some sentient statues of liver cancer.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21545 on: June 12, 2018, 03:41:23 pm »

All I'm saying is, give me an option. Give me any option that's more likely to bring the country to a better place than the Democrats, and I'll vote for them. Hell, I'll volunteer for them.

We have to demand it.  We have to stop giving them a free pass because of this good cop/bad cop culture war routine.  We have to vote for 3rd parties even when we know they won't win to put our numbers on the map.  Until it truly sinks in that we won't settle for voting against our own interests anymore, we'll keep getting served the same shit.  Instead of them scaring us with "vote for us or the Republicans will win!", we need to scare THEM with "give us something to vote for or the Republicans will win!"

Edit:

Yeah, it's that or actually give up on the Democrats and truly support a third party like the one MSH linked.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 03:43:59 pm by SalmonGod »
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UristMcChladni

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21546 on: June 12, 2018, 03:46:25 pm »

All I'm saying is, give me an option. Give me any option that's more likely to bring the country to a better place than the Democrats, and I'll vote for them. Hell, I'll volunteer for them.
I'm glad you asked. (Note the membership explosion)

So get out there and primary some sentient statues of liver cancer.
I mean, I'm down with that, and if they can keep up the momentum from PA and keep their membership ballooning, that might eventually be a feasible option. But where I am right now, identifying with the DSA is going to mean voting D.

Quote from: Michael Harrington
The Democratic Socialists envision a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning...and racial equality.

I mean, you're gonna get the hackles of people on the right up, but it seems that even the most tepid progressive policies do that, so I'm down for going full socialist.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21547 on: June 12, 2018, 03:51:22 pm »

Make no mistake, the DSA is an entryist organization rather than a third party.

But that's why they're, you know, actually successful. Those two big tents aren't catching on fire anytime soon, but the ringleader can change. Trumpian nationalists were a minor but recognizable current within the GOP, now they are the defining leadership of the party.

The idea of "don't wake the Republicans" is a shitty strategy anyway. You shouldn't go around mocking people en mass like Hillary, but her problem wasn't that her policies were "too leftist" (hah), it's that she came off as thinking she was better than the public.

You might be surprised to believe how willing "always Republicans" are to listen to radical leftist thought if you don't sit around insulting them. In my experience, they're often even more receptive than centrist liberals.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 03:55:27 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21548 on: June 12, 2018, 03:53:17 pm »

All I'm saying is, give me an option. Give me any option that's more likely to bring the country to a better place than the Democrats, and I'll vote for them. Hell, I'll volunteer for them.
I'm glad you asked. (Note the membership explosion)

So get out there and primary some sentient statues of liver cancer.

They've definetly had a revival in recent years, but they still pale in comparison to the size of the two biggest third parties, let alone the two main.

Interestingly, they don't show up on the wiki page for third parties in the US, despite listing parties with lower membership.

Make no mistake, the DSA is an entryist organization rather than a third party.

But that's why they're, you know, actually successful. Those two big tents aren't catching on fire anytime soon, but the ringleader can change. Trumpian nationalists were a minor but recognizable current within the GOP, now they are the defining leadership of the party.

edit: Or because it's an entryist organization, whatever that means.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21549 on: June 12, 2018, 03:57:38 pm »

Basically, the DSA is like a political caucus within the Democrats, except they don't care if the Democrats authorize their presence. They endorse candidates and have affiliates, perform political activities like canvasing for those candidates and such. But if the DCCC were to come down from on high and tell them to make their candidates support The War, they'd tell them to get fucked.

The DSA's ultimate goal is to usurp the very real governing power structure within the Democratic Party.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21550 on: June 12, 2018, 04:03:01 pm »

The DSA's ultimate goal is to usurp the very real governing power structure within the Democratic Party.

Isn't that the goal of every single third party or political caucus within a party (at least those that have national aspirations)? To eventually take the reins of government? You gave an example of one in the post previous to the one I quoted.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 04:04:46 pm by smjjames »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21551 on: June 12, 2018, 04:07:27 pm »

Well, not every political organization. UKIP didn't try to take over the Ories from within, they tried to replace the Ories. And then the Ories started mutilating themselves, crying "I can be like UKIP too! LOVE ME".

And that's how we got Brexit.

But in the US political situation there's basically nothing but trying to knock one of two party establishments out of power.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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UristMcChladni

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21552 on: June 12, 2018, 04:10:09 pm »

within the Democratic Party.
reins of government
There's the difference. Third parties want to establish novel parties. The DSA wants to reform the democratic party. Of course both promote candidates for government positions.

Think tea party, but with socialism. And probably more tea. The tea party was never a third party.

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21553 on: June 12, 2018, 04:15:15 pm »

I did mean just those in the US. I can imagine that if we had a more Parliament-like party system, there'd be a huge load of parties with a few being big, but probably not complete domination.

@UristMcChladni: Yeah, the Tea Party was a movement within the Republicans, similar to the one within Democrats which is kind of a nameless amorphous shape right now.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21554 on: June 12, 2018, 04:21:19 pm »

The important thing to remember is that the two big US political parties are a closer analog to European political coalitions than they are to European political parties. With very little effort, you can identify many sub-parties in both major blocs - Looking at the Democrats, you big ones like the "Labor Rights" wing and the "Enviromentally responsible wing", smaller ones such as the "Campaign Finance Reform" or "Bring Our Troops" home wings, and fringe groups like the handful of outright socialists. An "entriest" party aims to become a major one of those sub-parties, and thus redirect the coalition to their goals.
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