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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1471976 times)

MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21600 on: July 10, 2018, 10:41:13 pm »

Neil "The Grass" Tyson
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21601 on: July 10, 2018, 10:49:16 pm »

Oh Oh Oh... can I join in the shitting on Neil Degrasse Tyson?
That sort of attitude ("this should never see the light of day so let me show and tell you all about it") is part of why he took the trajectory he did, though. Derision is more or less our primary means of self-expression now, so anything he says that sounds smug and snappy and anti-those-dumb-other-people gets amplified like crazy and then re-amplified when people come rushing in to point out how wrong the first group are for being smug. That's not to say he didn't roll with it rather too readily, but if we're going to claim Sagan was better for not talking down to people, it's probably worth asking how much talking down Tyson has done for him.

That actually plays into something I've been trying to push pedagogically for a while: part of the reason there's this kind of cultural divide is that we tend to measure the success of our outreach efforts in terms of how many new STEM graduates or enrollees or other dedicated people we get, which I think incentivizes the wrong behavior if we want everyone to be more scientifically literate/appreciative of science generally -- not least because not everyone who likes science can or should become a PhD scientist like they usually push, if only because it's a small, mostly mediocre job market. I can't imagine our current "get 'em young and never let go" attitude endears us to many parents, either.

Of course, that does raise the question of what measurable markers positively correlate with good science-related social trends, but that's definitely a problem we have the informatic capacity to solve.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21602 on: July 10, 2018, 11:31:48 pm »

Oh those naughty greeks.

Although the Bulgars probably had it coming.
Yeah, bwoi; trade war intensifies, business leaders (alright, one interviewed business leader) donít know why.

ďThey canít figure out what the endgame isĒ, pfft, itís been staring you in the face since Trump started his Presidential run. He wants to make China break under pressure and stop its unfair practices.
that's an objective, not an endgame. Like saying you want to put the enemy into check, without explaining how you intend to get into the situation where that will happen.

Expecting China to simply surrender is as laughable as expecting anyone to surreder. Mexico has been under pressure, they just elected their first leftist since the 1930s, and on a wave of anti-trump sentiment. People in other countries are just as willing to elect angry people who will fight a tradewar to the bitter, self-destructive end as the United States was, which is why acting like a child and expecting others to act like adults is counter-productive to begin with, even if it works in some circumstances with some parties. On the international sphere, if someone won't stand up to bullying, they'll be replaced with someone who will.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21603 on: July 10, 2018, 11:58:48 pm »

I think we've reached and passed the endgame: convincing his base that he's doing something.  That was their main complaint at the end of 2017, that almost none of his promises were fulfilled.

And I think Trump didn't want a trade war so much as restructuring our economy as protectionist.  This would line up with the location of his base, the midwest and the south, who want the manufacturing jobs to come back.  I'm not sure Trump expected a trade war or more accurately, he didn't expect a trade war from anyone other than China.  Remember how furious he was at Canada?

So from a certain perspective Trump has already reached his goal, the trade war is a side effect to be endured.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21604 on: July 11, 2018, 12:18:00 am »

I don't think the manufacturing jobs are ever coming back.  If the Chinese won't be doing them, robots will.
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Sheb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21605 on: July 11, 2018, 03:03:12 am »

Well, and of course it only works if the other countries don't retaliate, which they will do.

I think part of the issue is that Trump is used to fucking people working on his building projects. It worked for him, but you can't replicate that in world trade. You can't try to rip your trade partners and then go and find another schmuck to trade with.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21606 on: July 11, 2018, 03:08:50 am »

Hmm. Maybe you can.

Hense his interest in a space force. He needs more trading partners.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21607 on: July 11, 2018, 06:27:46 am »

Funny thing about manufacturing jobs in the US: by count, they've been about flat since 2008. The big decline appears to have been between 2000 and 2008.  Interestingly, that was before the economic turn in 2008.

What's really silly is that absolute number of jobs is kind of meaningless anyway - what's most important for day-to-day living is probably closer to the quality of life metrics, even as flawed as they are.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21608 on: July 11, 2018, 07:31:08 am »

What's really silly is that absolute number of jobs is kind of meaningless anyway - what's most important for day-to-day living is probably closer to the quality of life metrics, even as flawed as they are.
While true, you can't even get the GOP emphatically behind workfare projects at this point, shit as they may be, much less anything less problematic that could increase quality of life metrics. Bit less than half-ish the political spectrum is intent enough on destroying the country's infrastructure and government's ability to help people that jobs are about all that's left at the moment.

I don't think the manufacturing jobs are ever coming back.  If the Chinese won't be doing them, robots will.
Oh, some steel/whatever stuff seems to have been bumping up a bit.

It's just at the cost of dozens/hundreds/thousands of other american jobs for each one that has (on top of all that good will and shit vis a vis increasingly tentative allies and trade partners), and no guarantee for any particular region regardless. It's basically been about the stupidest and most self-destructive way to go about it you could think of that doesn't involve detonating nukes.

Manufacturing as a core economic activity that indefinitely supports increasing amounts of people on a high school or less diploma is permafucked, though, yeah. That's gone and it ain't coming back. It'd basically take nationalizing and subsidizing the manufacturing industry, 'cause that'd be the only way you're going to get companies to both use the methodology that could use that sort of background in appropriate numbers and pay them a living wage without said company getting outcompeted faster than you could blink.

... and if you're going to do that, you might as well just tax the companies a bit more and pay for better education/welfare/investment-in-other-markets/whatever. Be better for everyone involved, probably.
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Hanslanda

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21609 on: July 11, 2018, 08:14:57 am »

But taxing them sounds... Socialist. We can't have that commie shit, except for in the parts of the Bible we quietly flip past real quick.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21610 on: July 11, 2018, 08:21:46 am »

But taxing them sounds... Socialist. We can't have that commie shit, except for in the parts of the Bible we quietly flip past real quick.
*Lights Bible on fire* Burn the commies! /s

But yeah, we really need to figure out how to fix our education system.
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da_nang

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21611 on: July 11, 2018, 09:05:35 am »

The question is, should people be able to support a good quality of life without an expensive, time-consuming, and possibly-bankrupting degree?
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21612 on: July 11, 2018, 09:17:09 am »

I mean, I'd say someone should be able to live a decent life without having an economically desirable skillset, sure. Or that helping people get one they can enjoy is a good thing, for that matter.

Unfortunately, fuck welfare and fuck education (and fuck socialism, which is the direction you're going when you subsidize industries so they can employ that sort of person without getting run into the ground) are all right-wing red meat :V
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21613 on: July 11, 2018, 10:12:34 am »

Personally, I think the biggest problem with Trump's trade war (for america, that is, because as a Swede I obviously think that the absolute worst thing about it is the broad strokes instead of China-targeted) is that he doesn't, or perhaps the discussion doesn't, seem to understand just how broad fronts China is waging it on (and have been, for years). Tariffs to counter Chinese price dumping, sure, whatever, but they're also buying up harbours all over the world and putting countries in their direct influence, economically and societally, in both Africa and the rest of Asia - not to mention that trade lane grabbing they're attempting in the Pacific scene (that thing with the man-made islands near the Philippines).
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21614 on: July 11, 2018, 10:12:49 am »

The question is, should people be able to support a good quality of life without an expensive, time-consuming, and possibly-bankrupting degree?

That is not a question education can answer; although it is a favorite scapegoat of the left and right alike, particularly as regards STEM education, the fact of the matter is that we cannot educate pupils into jobs that do not exist and there are vastly more pupils than there are "good" jobs. We may expect automation to increase this gap faster than declining birth rates decrease it, although this may end up being a self-solving problem.

We are, at present, trapped in a cycle where every level of education is oversaturated with pupils whose parents saw it as a path to a well-paying job, at which point the resultant surfeit of qualified workers drives wages down and creates a surplus of redundant, unemployed graduates who look enviously at people who reached the next rung and decide that their children must attain a still higher degree. Meanwhile, of course, the high-performing pupils are accomplishing themselves beyond the remit of sanity and everyone else is bored silly and increasingly hopeless, which makes teaching absolutely hellish.

So perhaps the question should be "what are we to do with huge numbers of people for which there is no readily apparent need"?
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