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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3595784 times)

Elephant Parade

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21645 on: July 11, 2018, 02:42:15 pm »

I always thought of mathematics as a base for further learning.

People who brag about the knowledge of mathematics and never use it to further develop other skills/knowledge are basically stagnant, but with fractions.
High-school mathematics are a base for further learning. Some branches of advanced mathematics (statistics, insane theory stuff, etc.) can be disciplines unto themselves if you go far enough. Besides, someone has to teach math classes.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21646 on: July 11, 2018, 02:45:50 pm »

I always thought of mathematics as a base for further learning.

People who brag about the knowledge of mathematics and never use it to further develop other skills/knowledge are basically stagnant, but with fractions.
High-school mathematics are a base for further learning. Some branches of advanced mathematics (statistics, insane theory stuff, etc.) can be disciplines unto themselves if you go far enough. Besides, someone has to teach math classes.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't meant that to be as ummm... condescending of pure mathematics as it sounded. I would first of all consider teaching mathematics to be a very practical use of the stuff, and second was thinking of some folks I've met who think that taking a math class makes them some manner of knowledge wizard, able to speak on any and every subject because they can couple wikipedia with a 2-year math degree.

Math is cool and important, for realsies.
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Elephant Parade

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21647 on: July 11, 2018, 02:52:53 pm »

Yeah, sorry, I didn't meant that to be as ummm... condescending of pure mathematics as it sounded. I would first of all consider teaching mathematics to be a very practical use of the stuff, and second was thinking of some folks I've met who think that taking a math class makes them some manner of knowledge wizard, able to speak on any and every subject because they can couple wikipedia with a 2-year math degree.
Oh, for sure. Knowing high-level math doesn't make you an engineer, biologist, or physicist, let alone a linguist or psychologist; some people seem to think that, but they're dumb.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21648 on: July 11, 2018, 03:13:57 pm »

Yeah, sorry, I didn't meant that to be as ummm... condescending of pure mathematics as it sounded. I would first of all consider teaching mathematics to be a very practical use of the stuff, and second was thinking of some folks I've met who think that taking a math class makes them some manner of knowledge wizard, able to speak on any and every subject because they can couple wikipedia with a 2-year math degree.
Oh, for sure. Knowing high-level math doesn't make you an engineer, biologist, or physicist, let alone a linguist or psychologist; some people seem to think that, but they're dumb.

I'm actually remarkably bad at math. I hit some kind of mental block with like, high-school graphing and have had trouble ever since.

I passed my classes mind you, including the basic trig and whatnot I took in college, but not very easily. I think my professor let me go with a D because I was machine-like in my determination to pass even though I was awful at it. That said I tend to just sort of surround myself with people who are actually good at it (My best buddy is a nuclear physicist/mechanical engineer) to compensate.

Now that we are done with the DUNAMISDEOS MATH FAILURE TANGENT, what else is going on in politics? I see that we apparantly drafted up 195-page (WTF) list of Chinese tariffs. Wow. Trump his no setting whatsoever between "off" and "maximum overkill".
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 03:16:02 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21649 on: July 11, 2018, 03:16:00 pm »

Yeah, sorry, I didn't meant that to be as ummm... condescending of pure mathematics as it sounded. I would first of all consider teaching mathematics to be a very practical use of the stuff, and second was thinking of some folks I've met who think that taking a math class makes them some manner of knowledge wizard, able to speak on any and every subject because they can couple wikipedia with a 2-year math degree.
Oh, for sure. Knowing high-level math doesn't make you an engineer, biologist, or physicist, let alone a linguist or psychologist; some people seem to think that, but they're dumb.

Most of the people I know who think that way are amateur math enthusiasts, not actual mathematicians. Much like computer science, mathematics doesn't need any special equipment, so it's attractive to people who can't actually do science in an academic context but still like it, and unfortunately a small but loud fraction of those people want very much for everyone else to know how smart they feel so they mine mathematics for known facts they can be axiomatically, uselessly right about in between long diatribes about "mathematical purity". The same group of people are generally very proud of how many digits of pi they can recite.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21650 on: July 11, 2018, 03:46:37 pm »

The thing about STEM is that we only need so many people in those fields.  Once you have a team of scientists on something piling on more workers isn't going to make the beaker heat up any faster.  Its not like once you have a mathematical proof you need a team of punch clock mathematicians to mass produce it.  So like STEM degrees are great but encouraging people to choose those degrees is going to stop making sense at some point.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21651 on: July 11, 2018, 04:19:30 pm »

The thing about STEM is that we only need so many people in those fields.  Once you have a team of scientists on something piling on more workers isn't going to make the beaker heat up any faster.  Its not like once you have a mathematical proof you need a team of punch clock mathematicians to mass produce it.  So like STEM degrees are great but encouraging people to choose those degrees is going to stop making sense at some point.
One thing we do need, though, is operators. That need will be around for a while, as newer technologies, even if they build AI and robotics, etc. into it, will likely need human interaction of some form.

How many people we need as operators may vary.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21652 on: July 11, 2018, 05:03:18 pm »

How many people we need as operators may vary.

And is likely to drop over time; generalities about AI are almost always wrong, but it is probably safe to say that a considerable fraction of the people now employed to watch robots are there to soothe human anxieties and can probably be outsourced as error rates drop.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21653 on: July 11, 2018, 06:38:29 pm »

I would like to just quickly state the importance of the humanities. Our hyper economic would seems to have not realized that people do value such things, a lot. From my personal experience in college I would say that the skills that they give you are in fact very useful. No amount of people making ignorant statements about them can change that.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21654 on: July 11, 2018, 06:52:12 pm »

I would like to just quickly state the importance of the humanities. Our hyper economic would seems to have not realized that people do value such things, a lot. From my personal experience in college I would say that the skills that they give you are in fact very useful. No amount of people making ignorant statements about them can change that.

One would expect a "hyper economic" world to perceive demand for something highly valued with exceptional acuity, would one not?

Also, there's a joke in there somewhere about trying to prove the value of the humanities to STEM folks with anecdotal evidence.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21655 on: July 11, 2018, 07:14:14 pm »

I would like to just quickly state the importance of the humanities. Our hyper economic would seems to have not realized that people do value such things, a lot. From my personal experience in college I would say that the skills that they give you are in fact very useful. No amount of people making ignorant statements about them can change that.

One would expect a "hyper economic" world to perceive demand for something highly valued with exceptional acuity, would one not?

Also, there's a joke in there somewhere about trying to prove the value of the humanities to STEM folks with anecdotal evidence.
Not really, our hyper economic world has a lot of issues. We tend to look at stuff through a narrow lens and do things that are rather non efficient because we are too focused on the economic. It is not immediately obvious to a lot of people how such skills are very valuable. Just because capitalist idealism likes to think that it always does the most efficient thing doesn't mean it actually does. Also as an addendum to that, not all value is economic. Capital comes in many different forms. Our modern world likes to ignore everything but the monetary.

What, do you want me to drag up studies showing the value of anthropologists to business? I can do that. Smart companies do in fact employ lots of us. The issue is not however that some do, it's the general disrespect for the softer skills and a solid grounding in more complex concepts that exists in our society. It's not just businesses but many institutions that overlook such skills. This means people with those skills must learn to sell the value to businesses and the public. The issue is that when people want something but don't understand what said thing requires or alternatively don't know they need something. Like seriously, if I say to someone I'm an anthropologist they will have no idea what that is most of the time or an extremely distorted idea. They don't know that valuable skills I have unlike if I said I had (and I don't) an engineering degree. Even lot's of businesses that could hugely benefit from the kind of skills someone like me has have no idea.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21656 on: July 11, 2018, 07:28:50 pm »

@Agreeing with Redwallzyl

I would not expect a society famously grounded in the value of money above all else to value things that are not money, no. That's a silly thing. It is in fact the exact opposite of what I would expect.

I would also consider the many, many examples throughout history of societies that devolve into horrid dystopia as a result of venerating money and the people who possess it to be more than anecdotal. It is in fact the humanities that allow us to avoid those mistakes today.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21657 on: July 11, 2018, 08:29:33 pm »

The thing about STEM is that we only need so many people in those fields.  Once you have a team of scientists on something piling on more workers isn't going to make the beaker heat up any faster.  Its not like once you have a mathematical proof you need a team of punch clock mathematicians to mass produce it.  So like STEM degrees are great but encouraging people to choose those degrees is going to stop making sense at some point.
One thing we do need, though, is operators. That need will be around for a while, as newer technologies, even if they build AI and robotics, etc. into it, will likely need human interaction of some form.

How many people we need as operators may vary.

How broad is this "we"?

Going by 2016 numbers, 80% of US employment is in services, compared to 8% in manufacturing. AI and robotics might have some effects on services, but it sounds like you're mostly referring to manufacturing.

Full automation would be a small blip on domestic manufacturing that's already near this point, but let's say it significantly impacts overseas manufacturing. There are many ways that any given technology can impact production, such as reducing material inputs, a cheapening of the machinery itself, higher output per material input, lowering operator skill, or increasing product quality, but the most important is usually the reduction in total hours of labor required.

Here in the case of total robotic automation, it's this reduction in total hours of labor (i.e. employment) required would be the most obvious effect. Robots are still extremely expensive and undergo continuous depreciation requiring maintenance and replacement (to a greater extent than "traditional" machinery, already ludicrously expensive), but let's say the technology improves so they're not extravagantly more expensive than other machinery, or at least the depreciation costs are less than the wage reductions. This would be a highly gradual effect that in reality has already been underway for centuries, and you would expect to see the same general pattern that industrial capital is supposed to follow, where most of the owners adopt the new methods and undercut their competitors with lower prices in exchange for taking greater market share (considering how few of these competitors there are left and how much in bed they are with each other and their governments, this effect is minimized or prolonged while they just pocket the difference, but let's say competition at least eventually happens).

What we can expect then is that whatever is being manufactured is now slightly cheaper (eventually), more of it is produced, and a bunch of half-starved laborers overseas have been thrown on the streets (more news at 11) while the total profits for the owners have gone up regardless of whatever else happens (and there are probably even fewer of them around as the industry grows more concentrated).

But how does this affect Americans? We're the ones who consume most of this soon-to-be garbage, so we get to enjoy cheaper prices. But how do we pay for it? 80% of us are in services (that is, of the 60% of the population that's employed), but what does that even mean? We're certainly not "servicing" the half-starved laborers and children that actually produce most of our junk, and while we are for the most part "servicing" each other (as opposed to directly fellating the Gates and Bezos of the country), hardly any of those people produce anything themselves except "services" (if anything).

If we listen to Keynes (who I'm in two minds about) then the ultimate source of the money that we're today just shoving around and around in services is from the fund that property owners deem worthy to invest domestically along with whatever they leave on the table at the yacht dealership (plus the various means the federal government has of wringing seigniorage out of the currency markets to increase spending without inducing monetary inflation). It's not likely that they'll take those new profits and increase domestic investment out of proportion, since foreign governments willing to bribe investors and sell their populace into slavery are hardly going to be more lacking, so what does society get out of this? Some mildly cheaper goods (if the industry cartels and monopolists get around to it), while real wages after rent, interest, and taxes continue to decline, and in all likelihood we see a reduction in the total amount of table scraps that the owner class is willing to throw to their upper-middle-class creatures and trickle to the rest. And all this continues, while the poorest continue to work 60 hours a week "servicing" a miserable and unproductive society in the last industries that can't be outsourced and while the gap between "middle class" and "abject peonage" blurs further.

There are economic aspects of AI that are interesting as well, like how it may end up replacing highly educated workers and induce a great societal lapse in human intelligence (for nobody's benefit), but this rant is already running way too long.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 08:32:18 pm by UrbanGiraffe »
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21658 on: July 11, 2018, 09:08:51 pm »

Just like how the model T could never replace all the industrial tasks of horses.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #21659 on: July 11, 2018, 09:11:16 pm »

Eh, the only thing that modern "AI" can do is pattern-matching. Not to say that pattern-matching isn't incredibly useful, but replace all highly educated workers it would not.

I don't mean the machine learning algorithms that are currently just used to sift data or solve captchas or whatever, I mean more general developments that reduce highly skilled labor. Computer-aided design is an example; obviously CAD wouldn't be used if it weren't helpful, but what makes it helpful is that the same team of designers can make more designs than they would before it, and so an overall effect is that there are fewer designers employed (or they're paid less and more total design work is done). Computers and even simple calculators similarly made computation work by hand obviously redundant, and while arithmetic may not be the highest intelligence it's still something that until then a machine couldn't do and so required an intelligent person. I know when many people talk about AI they're referring to it in that specific sense of linear algebra soup, but in an economic sense even things like an auto-lathe or a vending machine are to a degree artificial intelligences. There's no reason to suspect that more and more fields of increasing complexity won't be at least partially made redundant as computation progresses.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:15:31 pm by UrbanGiraffe »
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