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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3592528 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25515 on: November 12, 2018, 10:12:55 am »

Survival of the species, specifically, is quite abstract, both in its definitions and motivations.

I have a direct relationship with the world and its inhabitants today, and it's easy to extend that to a concern for the well-being of people even several generations from now.  And humanity reaching great heights in the distant future is a nice daydreaming subject.

But the indefinite survival of the species... where does the personal investment originate to care that humanity never ends?  And how far are you willing to extend your definition of humanity before that investment no longer holds?  Is it strictly our DNA?  Is that all we care about?  Or are there elements of the human experience that we want to preserve?  And could going to extremes in the name of surivival undermine that?  Does a continuity to development of humanity's sense of heritage and history and cultural evolution matter?  Or is it all well and good if we fire off a seed pod to some distant earth-like planet, so that human beings with zero knowledge of where they came from live there?  Just so we can feel safe in the knowledge that if earth gets wiped out, at least there will be living beings somewhere else with human DNA in them?

Yeah, it's a pretty abstract imperative to me.
It is not abstract because it points to a simple reality. If we exterminated the human species today (or did not), in both cases we could point to the clear distinction between the real entity of the species which has survived, and which has not. Therefore in definition, the survival of the human species cannot be said to refer to a merely theoretical concept, or a concept that exists as idea only, because it points to a very real thing just as life and death are distinct. Therefore the imperative which drives the human species to preserve itself, has its concrete existence in the survival of the human species - until such time as we unanimously commit collective suicide, it is self-evident that our will for survival is not theoretical.

Regarding the personal investment towards survival of our species, it lies in two things: The first is the emotional component, the raw instinct to see our continuity continue for love and kin. The second is the logical component, that we are an entity capable of processing information in a manner which distinguishes us from non-sapient life, or more generally the inanimate matter of the universe. I personally do not see myself as any more important than those before me, around me or who will replace me in this purpose; We cannot continue this process if we are exterminated by some freak cosmic event or human error. The continuity of human life matters far more to me, the stress over the mutability of our continuity confuses me. This argument, that whatever beings sent across the stars might deviate from the human species, we should not endeavour for it... It makes no sense to me. By the selfsame logic, we should kill ourselves for not being identical in composition to our past selves, we should eliminate the species knowing it will in future it will cease to be homo sapiens (provided it survives long enough of course). Quite frankly our feelings about the matter & whether or whether not it makes us feel safe or less safe do not matter, the purpose of life is inherently self-justifying - life. If we were to be exterminated today our dead bones will feel nothing, but the true distinction between our survival and extinction would be readily apparent.

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25516 on: November 12, 2018, 10:20:11 am »

Just to note that I was primarily addressing the "go to Mars to get overpopulation down". Doing that would be harder, and less effective, than a good old genocide.

Pushing up a whole load of (unwilling?) persons on the top of firecrackers that have a chance to kill their passengers (and, if they fail at the wrong time, maybe increase ground-deaths significantly too) will pare down the Earthly population, sure, but it can be done more efficiently.

(Not, of course, that it should. Either way.)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25517 on: November 12, 2018, 10:23:21 am »

Just to note that I was primarily addressing the "go to Mars to get overpopulation down". Doing that would be harder, and less effective, than a good old genocide.
Or we could just urbanise the world, flood the cities with education, contraceptives and lgbt

Tends to lower populations without genocide u edglawd

Pushing up a whole load of (unwilling?) persons on the top of firecrackers that have a chance to kill their passengers (and, if they fail at the wrong time, maybe increase ground-deaths significantly too) will pare down the Earthly population, sure, but it can be done more efficiently.
(Not, of course, that it should. Either way.)
There is no way in hell if we didn't possess mass transit means off this planet that you wouldn't have billions of volunteers, heck you on about with unwilling. I WANT ON MR. BONE'S WILD FIRECRACKER

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25518 on: November 12, 2018, 10:32:17 am »

Sadly using rocket launches is completely infeasible, because the number you'd need to move any sizable fraction of the population of the Earth into low-Earth orbit would heat the planet enough to reach the worst-case scenario of climate change, and reach it really fast. Well, "really fast" if you're remarkably good at building rockets and making rocket fuel, anyway.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25519 on: November 12, 2018, 10:33:32 am »

That is the least of the practical concerns with today's technology, I was only responding to the hypothetical of mass transit, which is altogether a separate issue from space colonisation altogether

Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25520 on: November 12, 2018, 10:33:49 am »

Genetic engineering is a nearer and more realistic goal than Mars colonization, so I think it'd be wise to assume we achieve the former before the latter and plan accordingly.

"Genetic engineering" is not a single, monolithic technology; we don't go from putting GFP in rats and running somatic cell nuclear transfer on sheep to suddenly being able to make whatever we want, regardless of the pop-sci hype about CRISPR that's got all the laypeople excited. Nor is it reducible to a series of modular, independent steps. You can build, say, a lander to get a payload of mass X onto the Martian surface from orbit and then have some other people build a cruise stage to get that lander across interplanetary space while treating the lander as a black box of a certain mass and power requirement and so forth. Systems biology doesn't really work that way; everything you change interacts with everything else you change, and cells are surprisingly intolerant to metabolic stresses of the type induced by expressing exogenous proteins. Add in too many (read: about a dozen, depending) and they get sick and die even as immortalized cell cultures, let alone as, you know, primary cells in an actual organism. So the usual naive solution of giving people some capability they're vaguely aware some other animal has, be it a bear's ability to hibernate or a mole rat's resistance to cancer or anything at all about tardigrades, would involve reengineering the entire proteome to compensate for the difference in amino acid usage at minimum and we don't know how to find the mechanisms controlling some of that, let alone tune them, and that's only if the differences are purely chemical. Anything anatomical means figuring out not only what we want but also how to get cells to communicate how to build it. The human genome doesn't contain, say, a "gene for bones" that we can just edit to make them universally lighter and longer and thinner. It has a whole welter of genes for guiding that development process in ways that are controlled quite literally mechanically as well as chemically in countless molecular contexts. Again, we don't know where a lot of those controls are, let alone how to tune them.

The single biggest problem, though, is the sheer amount of time this would all take. Humans take forever to grow, and even if you've figured out two changes you want to make it's going to take at least another generation to see if they can both be made in the same organism -- and those are changes like tuning the expression of individual proteins, not changes like "low gravity tolerance" generally.

Putting humans on Mars is a laughably difficult problem, but it's made up of smaller problems that can, within reason, be dealt with individually. We can enumerate everything we can't do and where the shortfall lies. (Mostly it's a bunch of little things with environmental control and a literally massive problem with our limits in getting heavy equipment onto the surface exacerbating a number of logistical challenges.) Genetic engineering on the scale you propose, though, involves making thousands of regulatory elements we don't yet know exist work in concert with physiological changes both subtle and gross in ways we cannot yet accurately model, and they must all be made to work together. That's a much more difficult problem even taking into account that it'd take a literal lifetime to know whether or not we succeeded.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25521 on: November 12, 2018, 10:36:49 am »

Don't half of the countries on earth now have a fertility rate below replacement? And we still debating overpopulation? Really?

I swear to god the last two humans on earth will spend their hours debating about whether procreation will use up their limited resources.

Pushing up a whole load of (unwilling?) persons on the top of firecrackers that have a chance to kill their passengers (and, if they fail at the wrong time, maybe increase ground-deaths significantly too) will pare down the Earthly population, sure, but it can be done more efficiently.
(Not, of course, that it should. Either way.)
There is no way in hell if we didn't possess mass transit means off this planet that you wouldn't have billions of volunteers, heck you on about with unwilling. I WANT ON MR. BONE'S WILD FIRECRACKER
Me too. Think of the space for all the careers left in the dust here. Hell I'd be happy to be a martian urban planner. Imagine being the Robert Moses of Mars? (Without the whole anti-public transport thing).

But what would I call my city? Newer York is nice, but it just doesn't have the right ring to it.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25522 on: November 12, 2018, 10:45:06 am »

Just to put the concept of genetically engineered lab-grown humans in perspective, the first child carried to term from IVF treatment is only 40 and there are still open questions being researched about the health of IVF babies, with some very distinctive bad signs having been found. Making humans is hard.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25523 on: November 12, 2018, 10:50:31 am »

Just to put the concept of genetically engineered lab-grown humans in perspective, the first child carried to term from IVF treatment is only 40 and there are still open questions being researched about the health of IVF babies, with some very distinctive bad signs having been found. Making humans is hard.
There is a joke to be made about an easy way to make humans, but I will not make it

Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25524 on: November 12, 2018, 10:51:43 am »

Don't half of the countries on earth now have a fertility rate below replacement? And we still debating overpopulation? Really?
Ah, but half the countries on earth contribute less than half the population! Soon, all the less-fertile nations will crumble to dust as they fall by the wayside and are outnumbered by the new world order... Then, only Belgium will remain!

Just to put the concept of genetically engineered lab-grown humans in perspective, the first child carried to term from IVF treatment is only 40 and there are still open questions being researched about the health of IVF babies, with some very distinctive bad signs having been found. Making humans is hard.
There is a joke to be made about an easy way to make humans, but I will not make it
Well, some parts of it are indeed very hard. If it works, that is.

scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25525 on: November 12, 2018, 10:52:08 am »

Just to note that I was primarily addressing the "go to Mars to get overpopulation down". Doing that would be harder, and less effective, than a good old genocide.

Hey if we just murder all nations and ethnicities equally percentally it won't need to be genocide


Sadly using rocket launches is completely infeasible, because the number you'd need to move any sizable fraction of the population of the Earth into low-Earth orbit would heat the planet enough to reach the worst-case scenario of climate change, and reach it really fast. Well, "really fast" if you're remarkably good at building rockets and making rocket fuel, anyway.

Not at all, rockets punching a hole in the heavenly barrier manifest between us and the void will cause enough air to escape from the atmosphere to cause a cool down effect that make up for the heat generation
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25526 on: November 12, 2018, 10:55:09 am »

Hey if we just murder all nations and ethnicities equally percentally it won't need to be genocide
If Stalin's anything to go by, everyone will be completely ok with this. Might even make some thanos memes whilst they starved to death

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25527 on: November 12, 2018, 11:11:19 am »

Don't half of the countries on earth now have a fertility rate below replacement?

Yet the planet still has positive population growth. Funny how that works.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25528 on: November 12, 2018, 11:24:31 am »

Why do we name hurricanes, but not wildfires?

California's wildfire death toll is up to 31, with over 200 people still unaccounted for.
Hurricane Florence claimed 53 lives, and Michael 36.
Fire vs Water, which is the deadliest element?
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #25529 on: November 12, 2018, 11:27:53 am »

Don't half of the countries on earth now have a fertility rate below replacement? And we still debating overpopulation? Really?
Ah, but half the countries on earth contribute less than half the population! Soon, all the less-fertile nations will crumble to dust as they fall by the wayside and are outnumbered by the new world order... Then, only Belgium will remain!
Funnily enough the US falls into the category of "below replacement", but the population still increases due to immigration. And a damn good thing that is, too. Imagine the social security issues if the population was actually declining.

Don't half of the countries on earth now have a fertility rate below replacement?

Yet the planet still has positive population growth. Funny how that works.
Feh... people miss the point entirely. Overpopulation is an overblown fear. It was overblown in the 70s, and it's overblown now. Most rich countries now fear population decline, and it is hardly accidental that immigration from countries where this is not the case is now a major question accross the west. What happens if the poorer countries follow our example? Than what?

And yet people still go around claiming we need to Thanos snap or the world will end.
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