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[wierd]

I have too many interests to properly invest my time in.  I focused hard on sciences, not arts though.  I was that strange kid that took chemistry as an elective, because I understood the value and power that even basic knowledge of chemistry provides.  I would have taken physics and mechanical engineering the same way, had I had enough money.

I actually loathed having to take arts classes to satisfy the major's requirements.

[sluissa]

I went to college because I wanted to learn more things.  I think that is the correct reason to go. 

Do you want philosophy majors? Because that's how you get philosophy majors.

Seriously, though, wanting to learn things is necessary, but I'd argue it's also necessary that the things you want to learn be of tangible benefit to you. The debt and lost wages certainly will be.

I went through college/grad school because I need a PhD to do what I love. I'd call that the most sensible reason.

And this attitude is what is ruining the educational system from top to bottom.

You realize they've already pushed occupational training into middle schools are are starting to try to figure out how to move it into elementary school as well?

Knowledge itself, the search for unknown knowledge as well as the recording and passing on of already known knowledge is a purpose unto itself. And if we, as a society, as a people, as a species, forget that, then we're doomed to stagnation and death.

[Kagus]

I had two semesters at university, where I crumpled under the absolute minimum course load and failed philosophy twice in a row (taking it both semesters). The other classes I took were "leftovers" that were so horribly mismanaged that I received a passing grade basically as the course's way of saying "We're sorry we put anyone through this". It was around that time I realized that I'm not cut out for school, much as I respect the institution, and became an invalid instead.


In my defense though, that philosophy exam has been rocking a 70% failure rate for several years now.

[Trekkin]

And this attitude is what is ruining the educational system from top to bottom.

You realize they've already pushed occupational training into middle schools are are starting to try to figure out how to move it into elementary school as well?

Knowledge itself, the search for unknown knowledge as well as the recording and passing on of already known knowledge is a purpose unto itself. And if we, as a society, as a people, as a species, forget that, then we're doomed to stagnation and death.

Without meaning to sound too "no U," I'd argue that it's actually this attitude that's driving a lot of the problem, albeit with good reason. Academia was never meant to be the sole repository of knowledge available to the public; it's meant to go deep, not wide, and pushing countless students through soaks up faculty time and hampers research, particularly since most of those kids don't care about half their classes and aren't going to remember them, let alone do any research.

Frankly, if a student is just curious about a lot of things, I'm inclined to send them to a library or online or something; basic knowledge isn't exclusive to colleges, and if that's all you want it's massive overkill -- particularly since the collegiate dilettante isn't likely to learn more than they'd learn from their library, where they can just learn exactly what interests them and are more likely to stick with it than if they have to sit through a whole lot of prerequisites intended for more specialized students.

So, yes, there should be a way for anyone to learn anything to whatever basic level they want. There should also be a system for educating people for their future occupations as deeply as is necessary. I just don't think they need to be the same thing.

[Kagus]

Well, I mean, Academia was meant as a way for the sons of rich families with nothing better to do to learn about how men are awesome and girls are icky.

[wierd]

What I tend towards doing naturally is interdisciplinary system integration.

Overspecialization is how you stop noticing the forest for the trees. Seeing that the one grad student's novel herbicide is the same family of compounds that the research oncologist is researching as chemo therapy research targets. That kind of thing.

[nenjin]

I went to college because I wanted to learn more things.  I think that is the correct reason to go. 

Do you want philosophy majors? Because that's how you get philosophy majors.

Seriously, though, wanting to learn things is necessary, but I'd argue it's also necessary that the things you want to learn be of tangible benefit to you. The debt and lost wages certainly will be.

I went through college/grad school because I need a PhD to do what I love. I'd call that the most sensible reason.

And this attitude is what is ruining the educational system from top to bottom.

You realize they've already pushed occupational training into middle schools are are starting to try to figure out how to move it into elementary school as well?

Knowledge itself, the search for unknown knowledge as well as the recording and passing on of already known knowledge is a purpose unto itself. And if we, as a society, as a people, as a species, forget that, then we're doomed to stagnation and death.

We live in an age though where someone has to pay for the pursuit of knowledge. You can't just work the fields in a monastery to pay for your time to read books. So you naturally come to a place where people weigh the value of one knowledge against another. I loved being in college just to learn shit from people who'd studied it. But I only was able to do that through the generosity of my family. If I had to pay for all that myself, I'd have cut the amount of shit I learned by 3/4.

[McTraveller]

It's about a month from US Tax Day.

Fun fact for those of us plebes who are mandated to use the tax tables instead of the mathematical formulae for computing tax on taxable income:

Because the tax tables are in $50 increments, there is a really terrible effect on the marginal tax rate on your last few dollars.  Say your income ends on an even $100 multiple, and you're in the 22% marginal tax bracket, filing single, at $40,000 income.  If you make $1 more, $40,001 - your tax increases not by $0.22, but by $11 - the full 22% of the next $50 increment!  The marginal tax rate on your last dollar is 1100%!

My taxable income happens to be xxx02.47, so I'm paying 445% tax on those $2. 

FULL DISCLAIMER:  Yes I know this doesn't have a meaningful effect on my full effective tax rate. But if I was going pursue a political career, I might point it out.  Also, my state income tax doesn't do this - it's a straight "multiply (federal AGI - exemptions) x (tax rate)" - so it's formula based, not tabulated.

[Lord Shonus]

We live in an era where any schoolkid can, at virtually no cost, access an amount of information that would be literally inconceivable a mere 30 years ago. The primary value of educational institutions in such an era is teaching you how to make use of that resource - how to tell good information from bad, detecting subtle biases, and properly evaluating methodology.

Learning for the sake of learning has never been easier.

[MrRoboto75]

We have to shuttle all the kids into college as we cannot simply dump debt onto them from birth quite yet.

[Kagus]

We have to shuttle all the kids into college as we cannot simply dump debt onto them from birth quite yet.

*In a dimly-lit abbey, an anarcho-catholicist is madly scribbling the details of Original Debt...

[nenjin]

We live in an era where any schoolkid can, at virtually no cost, access an amount of information that would be literally inconceivable a mere 30 years ago. The primary value of educational institutions in such an era is teaching you how to make use of that resource - how to tell good information from bad, detecting subtle biases, and properly evaluating methodology.

Learning for the sake of learning has never been easier.

Yes, anyone can wiki dive. But there's other skills you learn that are part and parcel of learning for the sake of learning. Synthesizing the information you've taken in to make a point, identify trends and patterns with enough supporting evidence, it can teach you that. It provides structure to the learning process so you can make your way through it in a way you actually learn something, rather than just reading whatever the links take you to. You get the benefit of someone's experience and perspective, a living thing to bounce questions and ideas off of.

I guess I don't put internet learning on the same level as actively learning something. There's no rigor to internet learning except for what you put on yourself. That's why you have teachers.

[Max™]

I thought that was what the protestant work ethic shit was, a way to tap into the christy crowd-influenced side of various brains and kludge in a hack to artificially jack the rate of people who will start comfortably accepting capitalist ideology straight through the roof.

I have never worked a job that didn't leave me with an urge to start whipping up lynch mobs and hunting down CEO's, though I've enjoyed various aspects of working at several places (slapping pizza dough is remarkably fun and easy to zen out on, while driving a cab was a blast because I was bombing around town in old police interceptor crown vics and they're surprisingly happy cars when you're letting them rasp and snarl and whistle their way around town all the time, and I just remembered what a beautiful work environment it was framing mansions on a golf course, I spent lots of mid spring texas mornings enjoying how everything is crisp and dew-sparkling and clean and green and lush and peaceful until we start hammering and sawing and shit) though I've no doubt made more at various jobs than I will doing what I am now (like literally now, got a handle on a rag over my knee which I use to collect dust as I smooth over champfers and buff out stray file marks) but I love the task, the result, the satisfaction of a customer seeing a package arrive with this fancy little thing I made for them to work and build their own shit with. I love knowing that I'm doing nothing to enrich random stockholder #73 and mr. slick new fuckboy ceo won't be getting shit as a bonus due to my work.

I make things which I enjoy making, and I always try to end up with something I want to keep. I like the idea of other people being able to make things they enjoy, and love the thought that I might be able to help some of them upgrade their kit with something they'll hopefully love using. Strangely I hate the idea of trying to micromanage every last of material, effort, and so forth in an attempt to wring as much cash from each buyer as possible though this is effectively a sin in the eyes of the capitalist clergymen... ~and lo did the dude cometh down from the mount and sayeth he to us these words: "maximize profit or else you fucking wankers" and when they thought they were doing so, it turned out he was skimming off the top so he could finish filling a pool with caviar or some bullshit.

College to learn should be an option, but it shouldn't be the only one if you're wanting to pursue a trade of some sort requiring specialized skills AND knowledge.

Back in the day I would have had the opportunity to start as an apprentice at a shop somewhere and set out until I wound up becoming a saw wright in my 20's instead of late 30's.

[Lord Shonus]

We live in an era where any schoolkid can, at virtually no cost, access an amount of information that would be literally inconceivable a mere 30 years ago. The primary value of educational institutions in such an era is teaching you how to make use of that resource - how to tell good information from bad, detecting subtle biases, and properly evaluating methodology.

Learning for the sake of learning has never been easier.

Yes, anyone can wiki dive. But there's other skills you learn that are part and parcel of learning for the sake of learning. Synthesizing the information you've taken in to make a point, identify trends and patterns with enough supporting evidence, it can teach you that. It provides structure to the learning process so you can make your way through it in a way you actually learn something, rather than just reading whatever the links take you to. You get the benefit of someone's experience and perspective, a living thing to bounce questions and ideas off of.

I guess I don't put internet learning on the same level as actively learning something. There's no rigor to internet learning except for what you put on yourself. That's why you have teachers.

There's no rigor to college learning except for what you put on yourself. That is why so many people coast through high school and then flunk out of college. No teacher can make you put in the effort to learn.

As for everything else you mention, that falls under the category of "making use of the resource".

[Dorsidwarf]

I thought that was what the protestant work ethic shit was, a way to tap into the christy crowd-influenced side of various brains and kludge in a hack to artificially jack the rate of people who will start comfortably accepting capitalist ideology straight through the roof.

I have never worked a job that didn't leave me with an urge to start whipping up lynch mobs and hunting down CEO's, though I've enjoyed various aspects of working at several places (slapping pizza dough is remarkably fun and easy to zen out on, while driving a cab was a blast because I was bombing around town in old police interceptor crown vics and they're surprisingly happy cars when you're letting them rasp and snarl and whistle their way around town all the time, and I just remembered what a beautiful work environment it was framing mansions on a golf course, I spent lots of mid spring texas mornings enjoying how everything is crisp and dew-sparkling and clean and green and lush and peaceful until we start hammering and sawing and shit) though I've no doubt made more at various jobs than I will doing what I am now (like literally now, got a handle on a rag over my knee which I use to collect dust as I smooth over champfers and buff out stray file marks) but I love the task, the result, the satisfaction of a customer seeing a package arrive with this fancy little thing I made for them to work and build their own shit with. I love knowing that I'm doing nothing to enrich random stockholder #73 and mr. slick new fuckboy ceo won't be getting shit as a bonus due to my work.

I make things which I enjoy making, and I always try to end up with something I want to keep. I like the idea of other people being able to make things they enjoy, and love the thought that I might be able to help some of them upgrade their kit with something they'll hopefully love using. Strangely I hate the idea of trying to micromanage every last of material, effort, and so forth in an attempt to wring as much cash from each buyer as possible though this is effectively a sin in the eyes of the capitalist clergymen... ~and lo did the dude cometh down from the mount and sayeth he to us these words: "maximize profit or else you fucking wankers" and when they thought they were doing so, it turned out he was skimming off the top so he could finish filling a pool with caviar or some bullshit.

College to learn should be an option, but it shouldn't be the only one if you're wanting to pursue a trade of some sort requiring specialized skills AND knowledge.

Back in the day I would have had the opportunity to start as an apprentice at a shop somewhere and set out until I wound up becoming a saw wright in my 20's instead of late 30's.

When I was preparing to apply for university I couldn't breathe for the amount of school-funded-and-run propaganda bombarding me with demands that I do an apprenticeship or "vocational training" instead. There's literal mandatory-attendence fairs just for this stuff.