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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1576556 times)

Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29880 on: April 23, 2019, 03:46:12 pm »

What you're looking for is this:
https://undocs.org/S/RES/2467(2019)

Which, at the time of this post, is a page that hasn't been populated yet. The final document hasn't been publicly uploaded as of now.


EDIT: Edited for URL functionality (goddamn parentheses...)

EDIT2:
Edit: Nope. This is the only mention their website seems to have of it. It might be one of the documents at the bottom of the page.
https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/monthly-forecast/2019-04/women-peace-and-security.php

Resolution 2106 is the previously-accepted document from 2013 that was being referenced. 2467 is the new one that has just now been agreed upon.

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29881 on: April 23, 2019, 04:41:57 pm »

So not having parking available isn't any sort of harm to the community? Cool. Suggest in a town meeting that as lack of parking is not a problem, the city should replace the city parking spaces with trees or something. And name the bill (whatever a local-level suggested ordinance is called) after the idiot who sued for the chalk.
Reminds me of the Old Lady Job Justification Hearings (That Mitchell & Webb Sound radio show, generally using Old Lady logic to show the futility of a given mode of employment) when they covered that subject. - NB, seemingly quite bad recording/conversion rate on that, which is probably best preceded by hearing some of the earlier skits in the series, but you can get the gist.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29882 on: April 23, 2019, 05:20:14 pm »

Makes me feel better about not being able to find it, at least.

Welp, here's to a better tomorrow. Maybe this one will be an improvement. Logically, it should be, but [enters loop about why the hell this wasn't a thing before now].
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Madman198237

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29883 on: April 23, 2019, 06:09:36 pm »

If I am not mistaken (and I may VERY much be mistaken, as I've got lots of stuff to do and no time to go digging right now to double-check this), rape as a weapon of war/military procedure during a conflict is technically already considered an international crime by the same UN treaty that defined "genocide".

Of course, given how toothless that treaty has turned out to be, I would advise not getting too worked up about the latest resolution. It's not fixing anything, and even if it was it would likely not be of much use.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29884 on: April 23, 2019, 08:25:36 pm »

Makes me feel better about not being able to find it, at least.

Welp, here's to a better tomorrow. Maybe this one will be an improvement. Logically, it should be, but [enters loop about why the hell this wasn't a thing before now].

Partly because there's entrenched resistance to recognizing the darker side of einheit. Soldiers are not automata doing only exactly what they have been directly ordered to do, and if our goal is to reduce the rates of sexual violence, at some point we have to ask what role the culture and mores of the institution are playing in facilitating it -- particularly since crimes about power interact nontrivially with power dynamics as absolute as these.

In the conservative mind, though, with its love of direct causation, no such grey area exists; every military rape is either an order or an aberration, and soldiers are either paragons of virtue or not true scotsmen soldiers. (This dovetails nicely with their crypto-stratocracy, as well.) The idea that their holiest of holies might be permitting or even encouraging anything immoral is a thought fit only for civilians and traitors (but I repeat myself, ha ha.), and so efforts to more comprehensively handle sexual violence can only present them with unpleasant (and therefore fake) facts.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29885 on: April 24, 2019, 12:34:19 pm »

I mean, non-conservatives do that too. They even do it with sexual issues, as seen with recent reactions to various Democratic politicians' sexual allegations. We had people in here arguing that we should outright ignore those allegations because we could lose political capital.
 
I think human beings have a tendency to pointedly ignore the flaws/misdeeds of anyone or anything they venerate or respect. We just have different methods of justifying ourselves. Best to be aware of that in one's self rather than accusatory of others. I'm placing myself as an example, there, by the way. As a Christian in 2019 I've needed to be heavily aware of that particular human failing. I mean really now, it's not like liberal-leaning Presidents during wartime have been more likely to charge their soldiers with individual war crimes.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29886 on: April 24, 2019, 12:57:52 pm »

I mean really now, it's not like liberal-leaning Presidents during wartime have been more likely to charge their soldiers with individual war crimes.
... have you actually seen numbers on that? Out of it enough at the mo' I really don't feel like trying to massage google into giving them up, so if you got sources on hand that'd be neat.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29887 on: April 24, 2019, 01:05:31 pm »

I mean really now, it's not like liberal-leaning Presidents during wartime have been more likely to charge their soldiers with individual war crimes.
... have you actually seen numbers on that? Out of it enough at the mo' I really don't feel like trying to massage google into giving them up, so if you got sources on hand that'd be neat.

I feel like we have a near-zero ratio of trying individual soldiers for war crimes/war crimes reported in America, therefore if any particular party has an edge it's going to be inconclusive. Like FDR was the head honcho in WW2, you can probably find lots of stories about our soldiers there due to the sheer relative volume abroad, but that doesn't mean Democrats are worse at this. etc.

But hey, you know what? You're right. I'll do some actual looking up of things and we'll see if I have to eat my words. Feel free to post your own results as well, anyone.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 01:22:58 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29888 on: April 24, 2019, 01:27:23 pm »

First site, wikipedia. Results not promising. There are eight PEOPLE on this list, not necessarily even soldiers.

Quick after-note: I didn't even have to go past Wikipedia.

----

1) Robert Bales was sentenced to Life without Parole for a massacre in Afghanistan. This was under President Nixon. This is the ONLY instance I found of a soldier being tried and convicted for actual war crimes rather than being given, say, a discharge.

2) Roosevelt was President when Jacob A. Smith ordered US troops to kill every male in the immediate area over 10 in the Philippines. Was not tried for war crimes. Perjured himself in front of a court martial. Was made to retire peacefully. Never tried for War Crimes.

3) There are a goddam slew of war crimes witnessed during WW2. These include rape (Okinawa being the most well-known, IMO), firing upon civilian vessels, the list goes on. Both Roosevelt and Truman were President in 1945, when the invasion of Okinawa began. Notable excerpts:
Quote
Samuel Saxton, a retired captain, explained that the American veterans and witnesses may have intentionally kept the rape [In Okinawa] a secret, largely out of shame: "It would be unfair for the public to get the impression that we were all a bunch of rapists after we worked so hard to serve our country."

Quote
In the Laconia massacre, U.S. aircraft attacked Germans rescuing survivors from the sinking British troopship in the Atlantic Ocean. Pilots of a United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) B-24 Liberator bomber, despite knowing the U-boat's location, intentions, and the presence of British seamen, killed dozens of Laconia's survivors with bombs and strafing attacks, forcing U-156 to cast its remaining survivors into the sea and crash dive to avoid being destroyed.
Quote
Secret wartime files made public only in 2006 reveal that American GIs committed 400 sexual offenses in Europe, including 126 rapes in England, between 1942 and 1945.

4) There are similar piles of reports for the Vietnam War. My Lai seems the biggest incident, which involved women and children and numerous horrific acts. This would have been, primarily, Nixon's Presidency.

----

CONCLUSION AFTER SOME VERY CURSORY RESEARCH: I mean there are A LOT OF INSTANCES of very, very clear war crimes committed by specific, known individuals both under and not under orders from their superiors, across multiple party lines (I found data going as far back as the Whigs) that were simply ignored in the USA. There's enough here just on wikipedia that I could do this literally all day long. There's basically one or more for every major or minor conflict the US has ever been involved in. You'll find plenty of instances where they are convicted in connection with war crimes or some such and given, eh a couple years or a dishonorable discharge.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 01:38:55 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29889 on: April 24, 2019, 01:46:49 pm »

Although the wiki page for war crimes does mention an example in the 15th century, the whole idea of war crimes didn't really go mainstream or something until WWI. The fact that the world hegenemon doesn't want to be held accountable by the rest of the world isn't surprising.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29890 on: April 24, 2019, 02:17:15 pm »

1) Robert Bales was sentenced to Life without Parole for a massacre in Afghanistan. This was under President Nixon. This is the ONLY instance I found of a soldier being tried and convicted for actual war crimes rather than being given, say, a discharge.

Minor note. Robert Bales would have been about 1 year old when Nixon left office. Relevant events all occurred under the Obama admin.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29891 on: April 24, 2019, 02:42:18 pm »

1) Robert Bales was sentenced to Life without Parole for a massacre in Afghanistan. This was under President Nixon. This is the ONLY instance I found of a soldier being tried and convicted for actual war crimes rather than being given, say, a discharge.

Minor note. Robert Bales would have been about 1 year old when Nixon left office. Relevant events all occurred under the Obama admin.

Oh, I'm a jackass and accidentally searched his birth year. Got it.

You right.

Point is, this is an America thing, not a party thing. Also we are hardly the only first-world nation to have this problem, though we do certainly seem to be the most adamant about ignoring responsibility. And I understand that the concept of a war-crime is reasonably recent, but I also don't think that "raping and murdering hundreds of civilians" is something we didn't know was wrong before the term existed. Only thing that's changing, as usual with humanity and our sense of right and wrong, is that we can now be held accountable via consensus.

(added significant edits)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 02:51:55 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29892 on: April 24, 2019, 03:04:04 pm »

1) Robert Bales was sentenced to Life without Parole for a massacre in Afghanistan. This was under President Nixon. This is the ONLY instance I found of a soldier being tried and convicted for actual war crimes rather than being given, say, a discharge.

Minor note. Robert Bales would have been about 1 year old when Nixon left office. Relevant events all occurred under the Obama admin.

Heh, I wondered what Nixon had to do with Afghanistan.

1) Robert Bales was sentenced to Life without Parole for a massacre in Afghanistan. This was under President Nixon. This is the ONLY instance I found of a soldier being tried and convicted for actual war crimes rather than being given, say, a discharge.

Minor note. Robert Bales would have been about 1 year old when Nixon left office. Relevant events all occurred under the Obama admin.

Oh, I'm a jackass and accidentally searched his birth year. Got it.

You right.

Point is, this is an America thing, not a party thing. Also we are hardly the only first-world nation to have this problem, though we do certainly seem to be the most adamant about ignoring responsibility. And I understand that the concept of a war-crime is reasonably recent, but I also don't think that "raping and murdering hundreds of civilians" is something we didn't know was wrong before the term existed. Only thing that's changing, as usual with humanity and our sense of right and wrong, is that we can now be held accountable via consensus.

(added significant edits)

Its more likely that it got applied selectively, sometimes with racism involved, and there wasn't really any kind of international system to enforce things.

While avoiding accountability goes along with it, the reasoning given is that the US government doesn't want it's sovereignity violated (ironic, I know) and that only Americans can investigate or charge Americans with war crimes.

It should also be noted that Russia pulled out of the ICC when it accused them of aggression after the invasion of Crimea. International bodies like the UN and the ICC only have power as long as others cooperate because they don't have any sort of force to add real teeth to them, as the powers that be (the permanent 5 on the security council) want it that way.

In other news, it's a sad thing when national security is threatened by a Presidents psychological hangup.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 04:39:01 pm by smjjames »
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29893 on: April 24, 2019, 05:35:24 pm »

Another issue is that the government tends to let the military deal with its own problems. And while it does occasionally do so appropriately, often the punishments, where they're handed out, are much more lenient than similar civilian punishments. (And often lessened years after the issue is off the radar.)

This is a trend that continues as you go deeper into the military structure.

In other news... Canada on the brink of war?
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29894 on: April 24, 2019, 05:39:02 pm »


In other news... Canada on the brink of war?

I suspect he isn't talking about a shooting war, but rather war in the 'no more mr. nice guy' sense. Also, isn't there a Canada politics thread around here somewhere?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 05:42:01 pm by smjjames »
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