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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 968208 times)

Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29925 on: March 17, 2019, 11:11:09 pm »

Good point, honestly I'd like to know what historians think about all this.  Supposedly they help us avoid making the same mistakes...  with the strength of all our past experiences.  I'd like to see what they've come up with.

I'm not sure how exactly to search for that right now, so I'm asking for good examples.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29926 on: March 17, 2019, 11:32:17 pm »

Well, I've read (nothing recently though) that the polarization is the highest since the 60's/70's, possibly since the Civil War, but IMO the toxicity and the particular brand of hypertribalism might not have any good historical parallels given that it's being driven by social media, among other things.
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Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29927 on: March 17, 2019, 11:53:26 pm »

I've seen comparisons to the Dreyfus affair with the left generally filling the role of anti-Dreyfusards (in the sense that they are interested in the outcome of the investigation rather than the facts of the investigation and willing to accept dubious evidence in service to that rather than accusing them of anti-semitism) from one side, and the right filling the role of Boulangists from the other. I don't know about either of those particular metaphors but the problems the later Third Republic had with its democratic process does have some interesting parallels to the modern USA.
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29928 on: March 18, 2019, 12:02:18 am »

Back in 68 the left wing ran a safer bet candidate and lots of further left/liberal jumped in against him, in the end he was getting attacked by his own party members from the left and having that used as an attack from the right.

Later you get Carter who pushed for stuff like environmental issues and as I recall he basically pushed for something almost exactly like obamacare ended up as today.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29929 on: March 18, 2019, 12:08:21 am »

I'm not sure this parallel exactly works. It sort of fits regarding the Muller investigation (again, absent the antisemitism angle from the Dreyfus affair) but not the culture war in general. For the former it seems we have three basic camps:

Left: Believe Trump is guilty and would ratfuck him even if we knew he was innocent of this particular accusation due to his immorality. Does not believe in the Muller investigation and do not expect Trump to be removed from office regardless. Generally believe Trump is just the chosen icon of America's sickness rather than the source.

Center: Believe Trump is probably guilty and want to prove it to the world with FACTS and LOGIC. Mostly would not ratfuck him if they had proof of his innocence. Believe in the Muller investigation and are divided on the ability of Congress to remove Trump from office. Generally believe that everything can go back to normal if Trump is removed from office.

Right: Believe Trump is innocent even if he's guilty. Believes Muller is either a traitor or alternatively working with Trump in secret. Believe Democrats in Congress are drawing up a drumhead court as we speak and that Republicans in Congress are hostile to Trump and will turn on him in a heartbeat. Generally believe Trump will inevitably overcome and secretly masturbate to the thought of him ordering Congress machine-gunned as traitors.
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29930 on: March 18, 2019, 12:35:54 am »

I just meant as a parallel to the current president situation, naturally neither Carter nor uh... fucking dude was like a vice president or something but whatever, neither could give their party a new infusion of life and the resulting losses resulted in a breakdown/rebuilding for their party afterwards.

Hopefully Trump is another Carter.
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The VectorCurses+1 tileset strikes the square set and the severed part sails off in an arc!

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29931 on: March 18, 2019, 12:46:32 am »

I was responding to Baffler.

I don't think Trump will give his party an infusion of new life so much as kick the death cultist urge into high gear, as the death cultist base is dying more every year. Sure, they have no future. But at least they can kill as many people as possible before that happens! Start rigging elections to increase your timeframe, openly embrace fascism, poison as many future repairs as possible, and such.
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Ispil

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29932 on: March 18, 2019, 01:24:46 am »

Hey man, if you're going to go down, might as well take everyone down with you.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29933 on: March 18, 2019, 03:18:37 am »

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Pumble

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29934 on: March 18, 2019, 05:51:02 am »

I'm not sure this parallel exactly works. It sort of fits regarding the Muller investigation (again, absent the antisemitism angle from the Dreyfus affair) but not the culture war in general. For the former it seems we have three basic camps:

Left: Believe Trump is guilty and would ratfuck him even if we knew he was innocent of this particular accusation due to his immorality. Does not believe in the Muller investigation and do not expect Trump to be removed from office regardless. Generally believe Trump is just the chosen icon of America's sickness rather than the source.

Center: Believe Trump is probably guilty and want to prove it to the world with FACTS and LOGIC. Mostly would not ratfuck him if they had proof of his innocence. Believe in the Muller investigation and are divided on the ability of Congress to remove Trump from office. Generally believe that everything can go back to normal if Trump is removed from office.

Right: Believe Trump is innocent even if he's guilty. Believes Muller is either a traitor or alternatively working with Trump in secret. Believe Democrats in Congress are drawing up a drumhead court as we speak and that Republicans in Congress are hostile to Trump and will turn on him in a heartbeat. Generally believe Trump will inevitably overcome and secretly masturbate to the thought of him ordering Congress machine-gunned as traitors.

The part about the Right made me lol :)
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29935 on: March 18, 2019, 07:05:09 am »

Good point, honestly I'd like to know what historians think about all this.  Supposedly they help us avoid making the same mistakes...  with the strength of all our past experiences.  I'd like to see what they've come up with.

I'm not sure how exactly to search for that right now, so I'm asking for good examples.
Most of the time I've noticed much being said by historians, it's been variously shrill chittering about fascism and whatnot. Holy shit stop doing what you're doing kinda' stuff.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29936 on: March 18, 2019, 10:15:18 am »

The problem with history is it's not the perfect teacher. Even when we have a solid image of the past and consequences of certain actions, there are still enough variable different between the past and present that there's no guarantee that if you follow the lessons of history you'll have the outcome you want.

All that said, society has pretty much said "fuck learning" for the past couple of decades and it doesn't really matter anyway. Individual experts can warn of their predictions all they want. Nobody is listening.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29937 on: March 18, 2019, 10:30:48 am »

True, and the fact that it's happening in an era of social media means that there literally isn't a historical parallel since social media is a critical catalyst for all of this.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29938 on: March 18, 2019, 11:05:15 am »

IMO, the best parallels would be previous upheavals related to disruptive advances in technology (especially communications, such as the printing press).  I've been comparing the significance of the advent of the internet to the printing press (except even greater) for forever. 

This doesn't tell us much about what to do or how to expect things to play out... but it makes a period of anxiety and upheaval of social order quite unsurprising.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29939 on: March 18, 2019, 11:29:40 am »

I sincerely hope that we don't have a repeat of the upheavals caused by the printing press. It took about a century to take effect, but the result was pretty striking.


The end result was called the "Thirty Years War". Also several "Peasant War"s. Not only was this even worse for the Germanies than either World War, it helped set the things up.
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