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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1375220 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29970 on: April 26, 2019, 09:29:45 pm »

Quote
*Meaning of Life Territory*

Just to address this because I missed it in the shenanigans, my issue with it comes in when society and the planet has to bear the burden as well. Long ago, our ignorance and lack of sophistication and science served as a check on population growth. We've outstripped nature's ability to prevent us from wrecking the planet, seemingly. So I do see literally having a kid year for 5 years, or however many that people start to wonder why, as contributing to a lot of problems.

I agree.  Which is why I said that my personal opinion is it's irresponsible in today's circumstances to have more than 2.  My only contention was applying that universally.  No qualifers.  No "you shouldn't have kids if/when..." or "you should ___ before having kids...".  That's stepping beyond the point of authority that I think anyone can claim legitimacy to, and using concern for children or overpopulation as a vehicle for other unfortunate implications.
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Magistrum

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29971 on: April 26, 2019, 09:45:46 pm »

I all for eating the rich, but I'm stumbling a bit since this stuff seems a lil bit fishy coming from a llama.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29972 on: April 26, 2019, 11:08:10 pm »

death by 30 w/o kids?

guess my 'sperg ass is as good as dead, then.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29973 on: April 26, 2019, 11:44:57 pm »

Three kids before 30 certainly would be commonplace, and encouraged. Discussions would change from when to have kids to whether or not you should ethically be sure to have them before 23 if you ever intend to. Your parents would talk to you about family planning the same way they talk to you about college.

If we're to run society logically, why let them voluntarily have kids at all? Just sterilize everybody, collect gametes, sequence them, then load them into a master gene bank from which we can withdraw whatever combinations are maximally likely to code for hereditary traits we've decided are good while otherwise maximizing genetic diversity. Ordinarily I'd say the next step would be exowombs, but as we're restricting ourselves to wholly extant technology, I guess hire people to serve as full-time incubators and control the maternal microenvironment (and, within a few generations, some epigenetics) that way. Foster them out to dedicated parenting teams and then into school until they're ready to be productive.

Insanity is no excuse for inefficiency.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29974 on: April 27, 2019, 01:36:44 am »

Barring any epigenetic factors playing a role, this would be a great use for unskilled/untrainable females in the population.  Guaranteed employment.

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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29975 on: April 27, 2019, 03:22:21 am »

I mainly am leery of having kids because I don't really feel like I'm capable of properly taking care of myself, let alone someone else, and I'm also aware of how much my parents' best intentions ended up fucking me over in the long run.

But apparently, according to everyone, the only thing you really need in order to become a good parent is to pop out a kid. Then the magic happens, and everything that seemed insurmountable before just gets done instead. For some reason, I never quite managed to take that explanation to heart...


I have an old friend in North Carolina who got pregnant when she was 17. She was on the pill. And with North Carolina's opinions on abortion, not to mention her family's opinions on abortion and sex in general, by the time she managed to arrange a pregnancy test from an out-of-town gas station where no one would know her and blab to her mother about her purchase, and then arranged for an appointment to discuss terminating the pregnancy, the doctor just told her that she was too far along and there was nothing for it but to keep the child.

Married and with a kid at age 18.

McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29976 on: April 27, 2019, 07:21:44 am »

The goal is to reduce our effect on the planet,
Although I believe in good stewardship of resources, that's not my goal - so it can't be the goal.

Incidentally - it's quite fitting for a politics thread.  Balancing disparate goals is the quintessential political topic.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29977 on: April 27, 2019, 07:48:18 am »

Eh... for what it's worth it kinda' has to be 'the' overarching goal right about now. Otherwise most to all of our species is dead in the relatively near future. Individuals can vary but on a large scale we either start pulling harder on that stewardship or the bottom on which all our other goals rely is probably going to fall out. We can pooh-pooh about it being a generation or two down the line but we're already seeing migration and mass disruption due to environmental shit getting out of hand. Balance with this stuff is effectively suicide.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29978 on: April 27, 2019, 07:58:49 am »

I mean, you'd think "preventing the death of the planet" would rank pretty highly on people's priorities.... heck, if all of humanity had a homogeneous utilitarian philosophy, we'd have already maximally terraformed Earth, and probably the Moon, for optimal human capacity while retaining a semblance of nature.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29979 on: April 27, 2019, 08:00:10 am »

Someone go check with Elon Musk, see how close he is to getting Asimov robots to take over as gods. (Jumping to conclusion that he isn't one already. That is SUCH an Asimov name.)
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29980 on: April 27, 2019, 08:16:47 am »

My argument is philosophical - when words like "this must be our goal..." are used, without any kind of reason why that must be the goal, it just bothers me.  For instance, physics cares not if humans persist or not.

I'm less troubled by arguments like "if we claim to be a utilitarian species, we should..." because that at least has a prior assumption: "if this, then that."  So unless you give me a good argument for "If we believe X, then we should try to preserve humanity" - I will claim that's a hollow goal.

I have my own personal reasons why preserving humanity is better than not, but it's not a "universal" reason.


Regarding robot overlords:  I'm still not convinced any robot-overlord situation ends well for most of society.  I think parts will benefit greatly, but others will either be extinguished or suffer.  Or maybe we'll end up with a world with only 10 million people all living in luxury instead of 10 billion that struggle.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29981 on: April 27, 2019, 08:23:11 am »

I mean, you'd think "preventing the death of the planet" would rank pretty highly on people's priorities.... heck, if all of humanity had a homogeneous utilitarian philosophy, we'd have already maximally terraformed Earth, and probably the Moon, for optimal human capacity while retaining a semblance of nature.

One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29982 on: April 27, 2019, 09:08:50 am »

Regarding robot overlords:  I'm still not convinced any robot-overlord situation ends well for most of society.  I think parts will benefit greatly, but others will either be extinguished or suffer.  Or maybe we'll end up with a world with only 10 million people all living in luxury instead of 10 billion that struggle.

I tend to agree. The Asimov robot storyline works only because of a gimmick which would be nearly impossible to do in real life, namely the three(or so) laws built into everything that could be considered a robot.

The more likely scenario these days, I believe, aside from the Skynet, AI run amok, type scenario, would simply be AI limited so heavily by the instructions of their makers that it would be no better than humans currently making decisions. We love our "Let's make a rule to make everyone happy... and then carve out a bunch of exceptions so that we don't actually have to make anyone happy, and probably end up making quite a few people upset." laws too much.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29983 on: April 27, 2019, 09:26:04 am »

Asimovs Three Laws is kind of over simplistic for real life anyway, which he does use as a plot point in many of his stories. There’s also one comic that I know of that makes a comment on how it probably wouldn’t work all that well, or maybe just lead to unproductive OCD behavior.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #29984 on: April 27, 2019, 11:01:58 am »

Quote from: Trekkin
Insanity is no excuse for inefficiency.

This is my favorite quote of the thread. Top 10, at least.

But apparently, according to everyone, the only thing you really need in order to become a good parent is to pop out a kid. Then the magic happens, and everything that seemed insurmountable before just gets done instead. For some reason, I never quite managed to take that explanation to heart...

Yeah man, look, the truth is noone has any goddam idea what we're doing outside of tips and tricks to keep them from starving or falling off a cliff or the like. BUT, having a kid about is a fantastic motivator. You do tend to find ways to get shit done that you frankly would not have before. What does that say about the average parent's character? Well you s[REDACTED].

I have an old friend in North Carolina who got pregnant when she was 17. She was on the pill. And with North Carolina's opinions on abortion, not to mention her family's opinions on abortion and sex in general, by the time she managed to arrange a pregnancy test from an out-of-town gas station where no one would know her and blab to her mother about her purchase, and then arranged for an appointment to discuss terminating the pregnancy, the doctor just told her that she was too far along and there was nothing for it but to keep the child.

We found out after my wife went on a roller coaster that she was 2 months along. Also, we were also on the pill and it just apparently took a coffee break for about 3 minutes like 45 minutes at least. We had to consider an abortion on account of my wife being a sickly person, we were expecting to have more time to prepare medically, financials aside. We were lucky, conditions turned out to be acceptable, and it all worked out.
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