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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1120922 times)

The Ensorceler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30840 on: April 25, 2019, 05:34:18 am »

Quote
It would be unfair for the public to not get the impression that we were all a bunch of rapists after we worked so hard to serve our country raped so many people
Fixed it, I guess... Goddamn is it hard to get the US to hold itself accountable for anything it does.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30841 on: April 25, 2019, 07:28:27 am »

Fixed it, I guess... Goddamn is it hard to get the US to hold itself accountable for anything it does.
This is true of any "alpha" power - the only way "alpha" powers are accountable is if they choose to hold themselves accountable or if there are other equally powerful entities.

This is true on a playground, in a household, in a city, or in the international stage.

I think in the context of the USA, the idea is that "the USA" is ultimately supposed to be accountable to the population of the USA - not to the world stage.

So if there is an accountability issue with the USA, we need to look at ourselves (for those of us who are US citizens) to fix it, not to have some external body fix it.

ASIDE:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30842 on: April 25, 2019, 07:49:54 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That we're growing up under the most overbearing surveillance police state apparatus in history that bludgeons us mercilessly as older generations cheer anytime we try to do anything may have something to do with it.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30843 on: April 25, 2019, 08:50:40 am »

Biden has now jumped in the race for reals.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30844 on: April 25, 2019, 09:48:07 am »

Bleeeh. Not close enough to the primaries to think about who to vote for, but I'm not voting for a goddamn 70 year old in them.
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The Ensorceler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30845 on: April 25, 2019, 10:23:53 am »

Well, there's no way I can prosecute a war crime case by myself. The only thing I can do is get people to think about things until prosecuting war crimes is feasible. By sheer scale of many problems, organizing faciltating and communicating are the only way to accomplish more than jerking yourself off in a fit of self-righteous gardening. It's not that gardening is bad, it's generally good. It's that collectively stopping bad ecological practices at a global scale is too important to stick to gardening, and it's vastly preferable to address the big issue than to make sure you have a garden when you're running out of effort and have to choose.

I might have misunderstood your point, but if it was meant to describe me specifically, that's why I do what I do up there^. Disclaimer: I'm tired and may have misarticulated my own points.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30846 on: April 25, 2019, 10:27:26 am »

Yeah guys. Just fix the police state, police brutality, rampant corporate greed backed by government support and international policy yourselves. Stop blaming people and just make a difference!!111

Sorry, I find that attitude to be just as obnoxious as "nothing really matters." Like the power of positive thinking is going to fix things we have no ability or authority to change. Making America not suck is not the same as picking up trash on the side of the road.
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The Ensorceler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30847 on: April 25, 2019, 10:58:58 am »

Yeah guys. Just fix the police state, police brutality, rampant corporate greed backed by government support and international policy yourselves. Stop blaming people and just make a difference!!111

Sorry, I find that attitude to be just as obnoxious as "nothing really matters." Like the power of positive thinking is going to fix things we have no ability or authority to change. Making America not suck is not the same as picking up trash on the side of the road.
I'm very confused now. Are you saying voting doesn't matter and even collective solutions shouldn't prioritize it? I agree that there's also a lot to do besides voting and get-out-the-vote efforts (I can't do as much as I'd like...) , but I wouldn't say there's anything we have no power or ability to change.

Ugh, I can't tell what anyone means. You could be saying the exact opposite. I'm not responding to anything else until I've slept. Apologies to everyone if I've only made things more confusing.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30848 on: April 25, 2019, 11:04:16 am »

That was in reference to McTraveller. Get out the vote, supporting candidates are about the most you can do in the macro sense. Unless you want to run for government yourself and be the change you want to see. That entails the average person completely devoting their life to politics since they lack the funds, connections, clout and experience to actually challenge incumbents.
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If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the Gods, and the nights will flame with fire.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?

Enemy post

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30849 on: April 25, 2019, 11:23:08 am »

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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30850 on: April 25, 2019, 02:39:20 pm »

That was in reference to McTraveller. Get out the vote, supporting candidates are about the most you can do in the macro sense. Unless you want to run for government yourself and be the change you want to see. That entails the average person completely devoting their life to politics since they lack the funds, connections, clout and experience to actually challenge incumbents.

I would say that organizing votes is probably the minimum thing we should be doing.  Actually holding our elected officials accountable is the next step - otherwise voting doesn't mean anything really.

What I meant by the culture thing is that most people are not even willing to vote, or if they do vote, they still "blame the system" by calling it things like "the most overbearing police state."  Yes, there are overbearing systemic issues.  Just talking about them isn't enough - talk and awareness helps, yes, but we do need to take action too.

Maybe we should run for office ourselves.  There is nothing wrong with starting locally. I mean look at New Hampshire - people did start collectively moving to that location with a common interest, sacrificing some of their own personal interests (e.g., preferred geographic location perhaps) to move to that state so they can start having a "Libertarian stronghold."

So that's the kind of action I mean - start organizing, etc. etc.  I fully understand that we can't as individuals start fixing systemic issues or prosecuting war crimes. But we can't just delegate endlessly without accountability.

Also there is this unfortunate pesky thing - that because we delegate in aggregate (adj), unless we aggregate (v) intentionally, we'll end up with the type of representative-in-name-only government we have in the USA, because the interests of the people are too diffuse compared to the concentrated efforts of special interests.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30851 on: April 25, 2019, 02:46:45 pm »

Even locally you have to deal with the political machine. People in my office have run mayoral campaigns before, and were straight up told by the Democratic establishment here in town "You will never get elected. You haven't done your dues." The established political machine hates and detests absolute newcomers because they have no leverage over them, and they haven't yet compromised themselves to achieve victory. You basically have to get dirty to be electable in the eyes of the establishment so you put yourself on their level, put them at ease that you'll be just as slimey and backroom dealing as they have been, so they can rest assured the system they've steered will continue on regardless of who gets elected.

That's the reality no matter where you live. Again, if you want to devote the entirety of your life to politics, your time, your money, your morals, then maybe you stand a chance of being elected. That's not relevant to the vast majority of voter's lives. People always talk about taking tangible action but the venues where you can actually do anything are limited. Raising awareness is the most independent thing you can do right now. But it's a dicier time to stand on the corner and try and "get people woke" than ever before. You can practice Civil Disobedience but it runs the same if not greater risks.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 02:49:09 pm by nenjin »
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If you're going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the Gods, and the nights will flame with fire.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?

McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30852 on: April 25, 2019, 03:13:50 pm »

Ok you guys are making me cynical... what do you propose then?  That people just magically start behaving nicely?

I've been trying to make suggestions, and it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 :'(
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30853 on: April 25, 2019, 03:29:46 pm »

I wasn't saying that as an excuse for doing nothing.  I'm just saying that it should be understandable if Millennials/Gen Zs have a different attitude and a harder time regarding political action than Xers or Boomers.  They're struggling harder to survive and face greater obstacles imposed on them to discourage organizing.  Throwing longer work hours and greater risks at people and expecting the same attitude towards/rates of political action is magical thinking.

I've been trying to make suggestions, and it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 :'(

That's not my intention, either.  I was only responding to the "kids these days" style rhetoric.  It wasn't really coming across as suggestions so much as lamentation and admonishment.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 03:33:59 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30854 on: April 25, 2019, 03:31:23 pm »

it feels like everyone just says "well that won't work..." without offering any alternatives.

 :'(
Well... You could always shoot someone.
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