Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 2144 2145 [2146] 2147 2148 ... 2333

Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1313352 times)

Kagus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Olive oil. Don't you?
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32175 on: September 11, 2019, 02:27:14 am »

They did have a kind of good cop/bad cop system going though.
Or, really, more of a Bad Cop/Dummkopf system.

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32176 on: September 11, 2019, 12:58:57 pm »

I had a dream this morning, I was reading the comic version of V for Vendetta last night before I fell asleep.

So in the story there is a part that they kinda skipped in the movie.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, I dreamed that happened this morning to Trump and woke up thinking it was the best birthday present ever until it wasn't.
Logged
Engraved here is a rendition of an image of the Dwarf Fortress learning curve. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It depicts an obsidian overhang which menaces with spikes of obsidian and tears. Carved on the overhang is an image of Toady One and the players. The players are curled up in a fetal position. Toady One is laughing. The players are burning.
The VectorCurses+1 tileset strikes the square set and the severed part sails off in an arc!

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32177 on: September 11, 2019, 02:18:50 pm »

AOC just publicly made a big deal about a $1200 payment on her student loan and then apparently said "It was easier for me to get elected than pay off my loan".

WTF if you can pay $1200 in one go on your loan?  Also you're a member of congress - you make at least $174,000 a year.

Now, I'm all for fixing the massive financial treadmill that is our system of high secondary school costs funded by guaranteed loans that can't be discharged in bankruptcy, but please can we have some realistic spokespeople for the cause?
Logged

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32178 on: September 11, 2019, 02:25:07 pm »

AOC just publicly made a big deal about a $1200 payment on her student loan and then apparently said "It was easier for me to get elected than pay off my loan".

WTF if you can pay $1200 in one go on your loan?  Also you're a member of congress - you make at least $174,000 a year.
'I have student loans, too," Ocasio-Cortez told reporters. "I think it's so funny, a year ago, I was waiting tables in a restaurant and it was literally easier for me to become the youngest woman in American history elected to Congress than it is to pay off my student loan debt.'

She can pay off the loan now, that she's in congress. Read the whole thing.
Logged

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32179 on: September 11, 2019, 08:23:29 pm »

I guess my reaction was because it reads like "The only way to pay off your loans is to win the job lotto and get a $175k a year job".  Or maybe that's the point - the claims that really the only way to get out of debt is to win a lotto or be super-well connected so you can get elected to Congress?

My opinion is probably clouded because when I graduated college in 2000 I had a debt to income ratio of about 50% - that is, my student loans the day I graduated was about 50% of my annual salary, and at 6.5% interest rate.  Also, I got scholarships so only had to pay for 1 year (out of 4) of college.  So my brain rationalizes that prices today are lower, if the average is only paying twice as much for four times (or more, since average students take more than 4 years now) as many years of school.

So when I hear complaints, about debt burden - I guess I just can't relate, because I worked to not need a lot of debt, and then I worked to pay off the debt I had.  I'm also in that weird demographic age right at the end of Gen X; I remember growing up even noting that the worldviews and lifestyles of the kids as few as 2 years younger than me were very different than mine and my peer groups'.  That still holds - my worldview in general is more optimistic and "if you work hard you will probably get ahead" (opposed to today's sentiment that even if you work hard, you probably won't get ahead).

So I'm sad all around - I feel on one hand that there's something wrong that people can't figure out how to plan and make things work.  I'm sad that conditions have changed such that it is in fact more difficult (in sheer numbers, if not on a percentage basis) for students to get consistent employment to support their debt.  I'm sad that society has done something to education in general, such that it feels like for the first time in a long time, we have a generation where people say "education today is not better than it was when I was a student" (opposed to the past 2 centuries, where most people confidently said things were getting better).  I'm sad that the current young-adult generation is so disenfranchised and flat out fearful.
Logged

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32180 on: September 11, 2019, 08:59:29 pm »

Yeaaah... the work harder == (probably) get ahead thing has been pretty bullshit in the US for a... long time. Upward mobility hasn't been particularly great for a while now and backsliding is too goddamn easy. Been like that for generations, more or less.

Most of what's happening lately-ish is that folks are getting more cognizant of it/wiling to say it out loud, with a side of it actually getting worse by some metrics, too. Underemployment being fucking rampant really emphasizes the job lotto thing on top of all that. It's overall quite a mess that the younger generations are getting increasingly fed up with, especially when the older ones go out of their way to shit on everything that might mitigate it.

I've managed to dodge a fair amount of that stuff myself, but my position's fairly precarious anyway and I seriously, seriously fucking empathize with folks that didn't manage their evasion check.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32181 on: September 11, 2019, 09:56:38 pm »

Yeaaah... the work harder == (probably) get ahead thing has been pretty bullshit in the US for a... long time. Upward mobility hasn't been particularly great for a while now and backsliding is too goddamn easy. Been like that for generations, more or less.

I will exploit you in the exact proportion that you are willing to work hard.

MrRoboto75

  • Bay Watcher
  • Belongs in the Trash!
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32182 on: September 11, 2019, 10:02:56 pm »

working hard means more work at likely the same pay/position.

Modern labor market requires you to make your own promotion, by finding a new job at the better position and/or more pay you deserve.
Logged
I consume
I purchase
I consume again

Zangi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32183 on: September 11, 2019, 10:04:21 pm »

I reckon school in general does not prepare anyone to the realities of Best Murrica.
Logged
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...  This is the truth! This is my belief! ... At least for now...
FMA/FMA:B Recommendation

MrRoboto75

  • Bay Watcher
  • Belongs in the Trash!
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32184 on: September 11, 2019, 10:07:46 pm »

I reckon school in general does not prepare anyone to the realities of Best Murrica.

I reckon that's intended design.

Either or, what the posts above say isn't if school prepares you for anything, its that the labor market doesn't see college education as anything valuable, because it became too common.  But the inflated costs of said college education comes with a price tag that assumes the labor market still gives a shit about it.
Logged
I consume
I purchase
I consume again

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32185 on: September 11, 2019, 10:58:23 pm »

I guess my reaction was because it reads like "The only way to pay off your loans is to win the job lotto and get a $175k a year job".  Or maybe that's the point - the claims that really the only way to get out of debt is to win a lotto or be super-well connected so you can get elected to Congress?


I don't think that's what she was going for. I think her point was exactly what she said it was - as a young waitress, she was completely unable to make any headway on her loans. However, she was able to not only be one of the 435/350000000 people who were elected to the House of Representatives that year, but do so in a way that was inherently more difficult due to her previous position.


By any reasonable standard, these should be reversed. Getting into Congress with no preexisting political career or other high-visibility activity should be nearly impossible, but paying down tuition loans should be a routine and easily accomplished task.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32186 on: September 11, 2019, 11:33:16 pm »

I... like, I kinda' totally agree with what you're saying, but that is nearly impossible. There aren't exactly many folks like AOC that's managed what AOC has, heh. Though that it was an easier time in their particular situation to reach congress than claw through education debt is, indeed, basically a bloody farce.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32187 on: September 12, 2019, 01:55:52 am »

I guess my reaction was because it reads like "The only way to pay off your loans is to win the job lotto and get a $175k a year job".  Or maybe that's the point - the claims that really the only way to get out of debt is to win a lotto or be super-well connected so you can get elected to Congress?

My opinion is probably clouded because when I graduated college in 2000 I had a debt to income ratio of about 50% - that is, my student loans the day I graduated was about 50% of my annual salary, and at 6.5% interest rate.  Also, I got scholarships so only had to pay for 1 year (out of 4) of college.  So my brain rationalizes that prices today are lower, if the average is only paying twice as much for four times (or more, since average students take more than 4 years now) as many years of school.

So when I hear complaints, about debt burden - I guess I just can't relate, because I worked to not need a lot of debt, and then I worked to pay off the debt I had.  I'm also in that weird demographic age right at the end of Gen X; I remember growing up even noting that the worldviews and lifestyles of the kids as few as 2 years younger than me were very different than mine and my peer groups'.  That still holds - my worldview in general is more optimistic and "if you work hard you will probably get ahead" (opposed to today's sentiment that even if you work hard, you probably won't get ahead).

So I'm sad all around - I feel on one hand that there's something wrong that people can't figure out how to plan and make things work.  I'm sad that conditions have changed such that it is in fact more difficult (in sheer numbers, if not on a percentage basis) for students to get consistent employment to support their debt.  I'm sad that society has done something to education in general, such that it feels like for the first time in a long time, we have a generation where people say "education today is not better than it was when I was a student" (opposed to the past 2 centuries, where most people confidently said things were getting better).  I'm sad that the current young-adult generation is so disenfranchised and flat out fearful.

Born in '83 here.  A Xennial, if you will.  I've got a fair amount of Gen X in me.  But I was also an early adopter of internet and right in the thick of the cultural switch you speak of.

I've worked really hard.  Spent much of the past year recovering from severe burnout, because 2015-2018 I was basically working myself to death.  But I know people smarter and harder working than I who haven't done nearly as well.  I'm under no illusion that while my hard work and talents have been a valuable part of getting me to where I am today, they wouldn't have amounted to anything without a lot of privilege and luck.  I make more with a single job than most of my peers, and I own a home.  At the same time, I'm still buried in debt and live paycheck to paycheck.  I admit some of that is because I've been stuck in a toxic marriage with someone who's mildly irresponsible with money (mostly spends too much on soda and eating out).  But even without that, I don't think I'd be that much better off.  It's just as much to do with kids and medical expenses, which are burdens that very few millennials or zoomers can bear anymore.  My dad's sort of a big shot in his field and my parents are pretty financially secure.  If I didn't have their support, I would have been completely fucked several times over by various emergency expenses.  I don't know anyone with kids my age or younger who doesn't regularly get bailed out by older family, and those without such family support end up in horrible situations or more likely just don't have kids and accept that they'll never be able to responsibly afford kids even if they want them.  And my job fortune has been just as much about receiving valuable tip-offs and good words from friends and being in the right place at the right time as it has been about hard work.  I think I still have a shot at making it to a place of relative security before my parents are gone, but I've enjoyed very little of my life so far and don't know that I ever will because having to work all the damn time, so it's often difficult to see the point.  I sincerely doubt I'll ever be able to afford a comfortable retirement... and that's if environmental collapse hasn't de-stabilized everything in the next 40 years.  My retirement plan and only hope for the future, like much of youth today, is the death of capitalism.

I also graduated college in 2008.  There's a really sharp line there between the experiences of those who "made it" before that cut-off, and those whose financial and career journeys began after the crash.  Seriously look at the numbers and testimonies about how the experience of working up from entry-level has changed after 2008.  The experiences simply are not comparable.

I think an even bigger part of the generational difficulty in sympathizing is that older generations did have their own struggles, and when we talk about our struggles, it feels like we're marginalizing yours.  But it's not like that.  They're just not comparable.

My dad's dad died when he was 15.  His mother made him pay rent to continue living with her through his teen years.  He did hard manual labor.  He went to college, met my mom, and had me when they were 20.  My mom dropped out of school and worked at McDonald's to support the family while my dad finished his Masters degree.  They lived in a little 3-room shack with sections of floor missing about the size of your average 2-car garage.  They feared the electricity being cut and me freezing to death in the Wisconsin winters when they were late on their bills.  I get it.  They struggled through genuine hardship.  And they look at my life, and don't see the same.

But the difference is the things they did were possible back then.  It was a hard path, but it was a path that was there.  A single McDonald's income won't even pay rent for a studio apartment in many places anymore.  They didn't even have to take out student loans to live on it (if barely) and afford school.  My dad got a good job immediately after graduating, and the types of advancement opportunities that were available to him are not around today.  For example, he was a computer geek in the 80's, and without any formal tech training or certification, he was the de facto network admin and IT expert at the global headquarters of a multinational corporation in the mid-90's.  I'm also a computer geek and that's created some opportunities for me, but none nearly so grandiose, as corporate I.T. isn't that kind of wild frontier anymore.  Nothing is.  The world's population has literally doubled in my parent's lifetimes.  Almost every job market is saturated, and dominated by middle-aged people who got knocked down a peg during the recession, forcing youth out completely.  Desperation has everybody hyper-vigilant for a hole to fill, such that glaring voids like the one my dad filled as de facto I.T. don't exist for more than a year or two.  When I started studying what I focused my degree on, the job market was starving for the skills I trained in.  A couple years later when I graduated, I was already a dime a dozen and would have struggled to find a job even without the crash.  And I never did end up doing anything with my degree, and instead settled for work I hate that I fell into mostly by luck.

We're drowning in shallow luxuries, which gives off the appearance of being spoiled.  But luxuries are cheap, while necessities are expensive.  Ten years ago, I was renting a two-bedroom apartment in the cheapest, trashiest complex in the city, and I live on the outskirts of Indianapolis where cost of living isn't very high compared to the rest of the country.  I can build a capable gaming computer today for half of what a month's rent cost there ten years ago, which I'll get at least 5 years use out of.  Giving up stuff like that would make almost zero difference in the struggle.  It doesn't matter how much we sacrifice.  We can subsist on ramen and spend our 2 hours a day not working staring at a wall, and if we didn't kill ourselves first, maybe that would get us to a place of financial security in our middle ages instead of never.  The same opportunities and paths simply do not exist which did up until 20 years ago.

Meanwhile big brother is bigger than Orwell's wildest dreams, so it's ever in the back of our minds that we can't truly relax... ever.  State governors ship their police forces across state lines to invade sovereign territory as if they're soldiers with blatant disregard for state, federal, and international law so they can maul protesters with dogs and shove them naked into dog kennels in winter temperatures for wanting to literally prevent apocalypse, and a Democrat president mostly pretends it's not happening for months (Standing Rock).  Suicide is the leading cause of death among young men, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone under 35 who hasn't lost someone they cared about to it.  I'm not a very social person and don't have a large circle, but I still see expressions of suicidal thoughts or severe depression from someone I know every single day.  Corporations can openly kill massive numbers of people to make a buck and face zero consequences (opioid epidemic as just one example).  Whistleblowers publish smoking gun evidence of massive high-level corruption and war crimes with regularity, and they face horrendous consequences while the wrongdoers exposed face none, because Boomers frankly seem to just admire that stuff.

Everything's damn bleak and absurd, and there is absolutely a generational reckoning coming.  I just don't know when.  There have been so many lines crossed that had me thinking "Surely this is the moment.  Surely this won't be tolerated."  But I've been continually disappointed.  I've stopped looking for it.  But it's definitely coming, and it's going to be a volcanic release of pressure and transformation of landscape.

I think Muse sums it up best...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 02:02:31 am by SalmonGod »
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

JoshuaFH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32188 on: September 12, 2019, 02:57:17 am »

Excellent piece Salmon, I loved reading it. Right now I'm pinning all my hopes on joining the military, and if I get rejected for joining, I honestly don't even know what I'm going to do; I just don't see another viable path for advancing out of the "Hopeless Plebeian Trash" caste of the economy, and by extension getting any of the things I really want out of life.

You mentioned suicide, and I think the rash of mass shooting throughout America is just another extension of that, just another way to commit suicide while also dealing damage (however futile) to the society that created them to be so miserable in the first place. That's my theory.
Logged

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32189 on: September 12, 2019, 07:44:17 am »

I think Salmon's piece fits in with the stereotypical generation divide:  Born in '83 is in Millenial.  I'm a mere 5 years older, born in '78, right at the end of Gen X.  My take on societal disrepair isn't that it's bleak - it's an opportunity for doing something great.  It's that subtle generational outlook that, even with the same hardships, the views are different.  Graduating college in 2008 definitely is losing the random lottery - that was right during an economic downturn. I lucked out in graduating in 2000, right before a peak.

But that said - I never remember a time in my life when working at McDonald's (say) was enough to live on your own in an apartment.  The only people I know who were working in such jobs and living on their own all had shared living arrangements.  So I don't honestly know where the idea that "every job should be enough for someone to live on their own" originated - it definitely feels like something in the past 15-20 years.

Corporations have definitely changed though - when I was growing up there was always the image of working for a company "for life" and getting a pension, etc.  Then somewhere that changed to people changing jobs very often, 401(k) instead of pension - basically the erosion of loyalty.  This went both ways though - employees bounce jobs to get raises, rather than being loyal to a company.  Companies lay off employees for short-term gains even though in the long run it has societal costs due to employee churn.

My "generational influenced" approach is that a way to avoid getting caught in a mindset of worrying about the huge societal things is to instead look local: how can I improve my local community, to make it a better place, even if some other place is going downhill.  This can be a simple as just getting to know neighbors, etc.  Those local social ties solve a lot of the cultural malaise - a big part of the modern sentiment (as shown by numerous studies) is a sense of lack of connection to other people.  This goes all the way up to the big faceless governments and corporations.

Start working to restore connections, even small ones, and much of this stuff will resolve - and if it takes a generation, it will take a generation.  Do I like it, not really, but I can accept it.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 2144 2145 [2146] 2147 2148 ... 2333