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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1519451 times)

Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32880 on: October 14, 2019, 11:34:41 am »

or do the woman's piece of the inheritance cake pass to the husband as the responsibility of the woman is passed from father to the husband?

I don't really think this is the correct reading of the situation. When you consider the typical age of marriage, and how extended families work, you have to remember that the new husband is living with his mother, aunts, grandmother. The older women are going to be the ones directing the new wife on a day to day basis, not the new husband. If you have had any contact with for example mediterranean families such as Greeks you should know what I mean. There are spheres of influence for both the men and women by tradition, and the men don't micro-manage those things, they're left up to the women in the family to control, and the younger women are educated and given tasks by the older women. The men are definitely not marching around going "cook this, clean that, clear that up" to the women. Unless they want a beat down. Those types of excessively unhealthy relations seem to spawn more from the disruption brought about by industrialization than being a common factor of the historical structure of the extended family.

This idea that traditional families treat women like chattels on a regular basis is insulting to those cultures and not particularly historical.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 11:41:34 am by Reelya »
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32881 on: October 14, 2019, 11:40:46 am »

The "responsibility" in question, if that is what you're unsure about, is the legal responsibility. The same way the bride originally was the responsibility of her father, brother, or other male relative, as she is not her own major person in such customs.
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Love, scriver~

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32882 on: October 14, 2019, 01:10:32 pm »

Also, why is Cain paranoid of being murdered out there, IF NOBODY LIVES THERE?!
Well, animals are a thing, and many have big teeth and claws

IIRC, Cain specifically mentioned people.

Also: PAGING DUNAMISDEOS

*Walks by with a donut*
*double take*
*scarfs donut, sprints for forum*

I AMFH HERF TO HULP. God actually confirms the existence of multitudes of other people on the earth. He "marks" Cain so noone who finds him will kill him, implying that there were enough people that signage was required. It's not really addressed specifically, but I don't think it's implied that he created Adam and Eve and zero other humans, just that they were the first.

To join the current discussion, I am pretty unfamiliar with most of the old-school marriage stuff. Only things I recall about those laws in regards to the benefits to/rights of the wife is that if a man failed to provide for his wife or wives to a specific legal standard she can just outright divorce the guy, no questions asked. This included requiring him to seek any and all possible avenues for medical care. I also recall something about an amusing passage where if the man fails sexually she has the right to up and leave him too. I remember that if you cheat on your spouse they'd kill both parties involved, which was the impending situation in that famous "he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing. That bit is also used as a regular reference for Jesus indicating the old testament laws as defunct.

Basically I've always been told that the husband was indeed the designated leader of the household and had the 51% vote, but he was meant by no means to be the utter monarch. That's always how I've heard it described. Hell, my old man graduated from traditional seminary after four years, went home, and promptly handed control over the finances to my mother on account of her skill with them. Instances of abuse have been treated as such within my family. I remember one time where a family member was in a violently abusive relationship, and not to go into detail but we put the boot to the guy. Nothing really different from how I'd expect a non-religious family would handle it.

Quote from: Reelya
The men are definitely not marching around going "cook this, clean that, clear that up" to the women. Unless they want a beat down.
Yeah I have never known any traditional/orthodox family in which anyone offers disrespect to the lady or ladies of the house with impunity. Like you can, but it's a matter of time until you regret both your actions and the fact of your very existence. Usually not very much time. My experience would be with some friends who were Orthodox + Ethnic Jewish.

TLDR: Dammit I wrote a wall of text again.
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thompson

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32883 on: October 14, 2019, 11:27:22 pm »

I'd imagine an extended family situation would skew the balance of power away from the husband significantly as you would also have grandparents and their other adult children (who may not be present but would likely intervene if required) to contend with. Add the broader community as well, I suppose. It's certainly not foolproof, but certainly would have moderated things relative to the alternate.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32884 on: October 15, 2019, 04:55:18 am »

The wikipedia page on dowry is actually pretty enlightening. I recommend to read the whole thing for an idea of the basis. Most cultures had codified laws protecting dowries as the property of the women, directly addressing some of the objections brought up here. Who would have known that thousands of years of culture would have already sorted out how to deal with problems we just think up off the top of our heads on a forum thread?

 One important aspect is which types of societies had dowry vs which had "bride price". dowry was common in societies where the men do the farming labor, whereas "bride price" is common in societies where women do the farming labor (Sub-Saharan Africa is one area, as was China - due to the highly labor-intensive nature of rice cultivation). This seems like historical materialism at work here: culture follows economic reality.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 04:59:10 am by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32885 on: October 15, 2019, 06:57:04 pm »

And so it begins, the fourth Democratic debate....
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32886 on: October 15, 2019, 06:59:42 pm »

Sanders recently released a policy plan for enacting worker ownership of major companies, and they've had some flirtation with adding a four-day workweek to the platform. Power levels are like never before seen.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32887 on: October 15, 2019, 07:01:07 pm »

Sanders recently released a policy plan for enacting worker ownership of major companies, and they've had some flirtation with adding a four-day workweek to the platform. Power levels are like never before seen.
I like these ideas
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Telgin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32888 on: October 15, 2019, 07:12:20 pm »

These ideas sound great on paper.  I'd like for people to at least seriously consider how they'd work in practice, since they do genuinely sound good.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32889 on: October 15, 2019, 07:14:28 pm »

How they'd work in practice is that major sources of employment would be unable to just shut down to fill the next finance scam since the workers would get a vote, and we'd have resistance to both automation and wage collapse through increasing the amount of overtime paid and people needed for work coverage.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32890 on: October 15, 2019, 08:38:08 pm »

Automation is good in the long run.

Overtime is not a solution to anything except the company's shortfall's in management and as a loophole to increase profits at employee expense.

The idea of "we need more jobs" is outdated and needs to be killed.

We will always have jobs for people who want to work. We'll always have people who don't want to work. Forcing a square peg into a round hole hurts both the peg and the hole and we're on the verge of a post scarcity society that can support that sort of thinking, if we simply let automation move forward and not try to fight it.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32891 on: October 15, 2019, 08:40:16 pm »

Automation is cool and all but you basically have to overthrow capitalism for it not to immediately degenerate into a sci-fi hell dystopia. In terms of a realistic policy that keeps people alive now, we need shortened working hours and increased worker power.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32892 on: October 15, 2019, 08:44:25 pm »

I just don't see how that's any less of a stretch than a UBI is.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32893 on: October 15, 2019, 08:48:35 pm »

Automation is good in the long run.

Except to those that it steamrolls over in the process.

Automation has a long trail of bodies, beginning with the start of the Industrial Revolution.

Also, we're probably further from a post-scarcity society than you think, but we're definetly on the verge of some sort of transition we haven't seen in human history.

Automation is cool and all but you basically have to overthrow capitalism for it not to immediately degenerate into a sci-fi hell dystopia. In terms of a realistic policy that keeps people alive now, we need shortened working hours and increased worker power.

Automation can also actually be bad for capitalism because it needs people to be paid to buy things, no workers getting paid, no cashflow, nothing being bought.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32894 on: October 15, 2019, 08:52:08 pm »

The advance of technology isn't always good, but trying to stop it is like trying to halt the earth's rotation by building a really big wall.
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