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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1524859 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32895 on: October 15, 2019, 08:58:18 pm »

The problem with automation and UBI is that it takes us one step closer to 95% of the population being ready for extermination by the capitalist class. Like I said, worker ownership and drawing down the work week are only stages towards disarming capitalism before it...uh, well...

Explodes.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32896 on: October 15, 2019, 09:07:05 pm »

Dya know what happens when current employees become former employees?
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32897 on: October 15, 2019, 09:25:32 pm »

We're absolutely materially capable of post-scarcity in regards to food, shelter, and utilities.  Just not politically capable.  And there's no reason those things can't be distributed in a separate manner from a capitalist market economy.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32898 on: October 15, 2019, 09:33:55 pm »

And yet employee owned companies get thrown off as being baby eating blood gurgling communist by Republicans. *throws hands in air*

Though it technically is a socialist ideal because workers rights, it's still capitalist because money.

We're absolutely materially capable of post-scarcity in regards to food, shelter, and utilities.  Just not politically capable.  And there's no reason those things can't be distributed in a separate manner from a capitalist market economy.

If you're talking about the economic version, sure, but I kind of use the sci-fi definition with nanomachines and all that.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32899 on: October 15, 2019, 09:52:58 pm »

Plenty of studies have shown, and it's been done on small scale successfully in practice, that it's actually cheaper to just provide a bare minimum of survival for people than it is to deal with the effects of them falling through the cracks of society.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32900 on: October 15, 2019, 09:56:57 pm »

I'm not gonna say that UBI is all bad, but its biggest benefit is making sure nobody gets missed by the welfare system. The downside is that UBI takes away people's power with increasing intensity the higher the percentage of the population is on it. Labor is the primary source of power in society, and even in bad scenarios people who labor have the ability to enforce their will when they act collectively.

UBI recipients who act collectively have a good chance of being machine-gunned in the streets. Not like it'll close the factory.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32901 on: October 15, 2019, 10:00:48 pm »

I'm not gonna say that UBI is all bad, but its biggest benefit is making sure nobody gets missed by the welfare system. The downside is that UBI takes away people's power with increasing intensity the higher the percentage of the population is on it. Labor is the primary source of power in society, and even in bad scenarios people who labor have the ability to enforce their will when they act collectively.

UBI recipients who act collectively have a good chance of being machine-gunned in the streets. Not like it'll close the factory.

Yeah, there's longer lists of both upsides and downsides.  But the point is it's something that can end up doing more harm than good if not implemented sincerely and cautiously, and doesn't coincide with some deeper reforms to broader power structures.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32902 on: October 15, 2019, 10:03:04 pm »

I'm not gonna say that UBI is all bad, but its biggest benefit is making sure nobody gets missed by the welfare system. The downside is that UBI takes away people's power with increasing intensity the higher the percentage of the population is on it. Labor is the primary source of power in society, and even in bad scenarios people who labor have the ability to enforce their will when they act collectively.

UBI recipients who act collectively have a good chance of being machine-gunned in the streets. Not like it'll close the factory.

Yeah, there's longer lists of both upsides and downsides.  But the point is it's something that can end up doing more harm than good if not implemented sincerely and cautiously, and doesn't coincide with some deeper reforms to broader power structures.

Implementing it sincerely and cautiously seems like it'd be difficult to do in the political realm, as we saw in Finland.
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32903 on: October 15, 2019, 10:29:39 pm »

I'm not gonna say that UBI is all bad, but its biggest benefit is making sure nobody gets missed by the welfare system. The downside is that UBI takes away people's power with increasing intensity the higher the percentage of the population is on it. Labor is the primary source of power in society, and even in bad scenarios people who labor have the ability to enforce their will when they act collectively.

UBI recipients who act collectively have a good chance of being machine-gunned in the streets. Not like it'll close the factory.

You're not quite right. People who the powerful do not need, in general, stand a good chance of being machine-gunned in the streets. If anything, this suggests that we should establish UBI and (while we're at it,) eliminate the bourgeois now, while we still have leverage.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32904 on: October 15, 2019, 10:39:22 pm »

That was the point? People on UBI are not needed by the powerful.

But yes, socialism or collapse, etc.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32905 on: October 15, 2019, 10:45:45 pm »

You realize that the alternative to the UBI, is social luddism right?

When you embrace inefficiency, you create LOTS of demand for labor.


Really, those are our choices:
 
Embrace willful inefficiency by outlawing automation, for the express purpose of assuring that a market continues to exist. 
--OR--
Embracing 100% automation, with a UBI, with all the consequences that entails.

Pick a poison.

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32906 on: October 15, 2019, 10:52:27 pm »

Actually, we have to degrowth to not burn out the planet and die, so it doesn't matter if remaining markets are automated or not. There needs to be a total revolutionary turnaround in the consciousness of what things our civilizations can afford to keep, and what must be let go. Though it's not quite as grim as all that, seeing as our current society seems to have only succeeded at making everybody miserable and hopeless, getting rid of parts of it would probably do us some good.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32907 on: October 16, 2019, 12:35:48 am »

So if I understand the argument, UBI is both too extreme a change to accept, and at the same time, not extreme enough of a change to allow us to survive.

And the only way to survive getting machine gunned down in the streets is to attack the people with the machine guns first.

I mean... there's SOME logic there... I'll admit that. But it assumes we're already at war and there's no middle ground between being slave labor and being stamped obsolete and dumped in mass graves. It also assumes that there are absolutely nobody in power with good intentions.

I'm in the "the world is fucked" camp, but even I can't be that negative about the situation.
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Karnewarrior

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32908 on: October 16, 2019, 12:54:45 am »

Yeah, that's some republican-tier negativity and disbelief in the human race, there. I don't subscribe to it, and I don't believe it.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32909 on: October 16, 2019, 01:11:33 am »

Not like there isn't a ton of historical precedent for capitalists shooting poor people for simply wanting to be able to survive.

Or like the exact same organizations who are infamous for doing so in the past are even trying to hide the fact that they're preparing to do so again in the future.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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