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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1110844 times)

Virtz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33360 on: September 22, 2019, 09:10:53 am »

Similarly, I'm not sure why you think that post-capitalism means people will all stop working. For one, it's fairly well established that people generally like being useful and for another... if nobody works everyone fuckin dies? That pressure exists, no matter the method of transmission. Ideally, though, people would be free not to be *over*worked or abused. Enough productivity to sustain things should be enough, without endless profit- and rent-seeking. This isn't that hard, people are really productive with all the force multiplying tech and specialization built up. There is not at all a need to put everyone on tiny farm lots or whatever.
It might be because IRL communism (or "USSR communism" as you've named it), where people are not properly rewarded for the work they do

Pardon, but in your description of USSR communism, you also describes capitalism
Perhaps I should've said "lack of punishment for the work they don't do or do shitty". The sort of sorry work performance rampant in communist times would get you fired in most places in a modern capitalist country. Like regularly-arriving-to-work-drunk levels of disregard for work ethic.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33361 on: September 22, 2019, 10:07:49 am »

It should be noted that industry is much more efficient now: issues that may have been present with suitable production of quality levels 20 years ago now are less problematic.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33362 on: September 22, 2019, 10:34:36 am »

Once you run into the situation where you don't have enough jobs for everyone to do without making up dumb busywork that's not productive anyway, then you're actually better off just letting the lazy people not work. The sorts of people who are going to do the minimum to get by are going to be doing the minimum in whatever job they're doing as well. Might as well just give that job to someone who wants to work.
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Virtz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33363 on: September 22, 2019, 01:13:20 pm »

Once you run into the situation where you don't have enough jobs for everyone to do without making up dumb busywork that's not productive anyway, then you're actually better off just letting the lazy people not work. The sorts of people who are going to do the minimum to get by are going to be doing the minimum in whatever job they're doing as well. Might as well just give that job to someone who wants to work.
Point is if you encourage this, you'll invite a culture of not bothering to do more, and consequently get more people with zero motivation to ever even try anything. Considering these people would do little other than multiply and make more individuals with a similar lack of motivation, I do not see this being very sustainable in the long run, and once things got really bad economically, it'd be very difficult to get rid of after being ingrained in society for a couple generations. Somewhat like the mindset is still ingrained in some people in former communist bloc countries.

As for pointless jobs, that's usually the result of mismanagement. They didn't start appearing in communist bloc countries because everything was perfect compared to everywhere else in the world, but rather because the governments were notoriously bad at gauging needs. Living standards here were never even close to those of the US or Western Europe.
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33364 on: September 22, 2019, 01:27:04 pm »

It's not really a choice. We are inevitably going to reach a point where automation replaces more jobs than it generates. This will create a massive class of people with no value to the economy.

It is hard to predict precisely where the dividing line will fall. Maybe teachers will be harder to replace than doctors; maybe lawyers will exist but not engineers, or vice versa. Heck, it may even be that white-collar jobs are easier to replace than labor-intensive blues.

To know how our society treats the economically useless, we need only look at the nearest streetcorner, or under overpasses, or at park benches studded with metal so that it's impossible to sleep on them.

Forget about theories of social justice and equality. Forget about maximizing GDP or even gross domestic happiness. Ask yourself if you think it's worth preparing for a society where you or your children will be cast off as useless at best, a pest to be exterminated at worst.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33365 on: September 22, 2019, 01:42:59 pm »

Once you run into the situation where you don't have enough jobs for everyone to do without making up dumb busywork that's not productive anyway, then you're actually better off just letting the lazy people not work. The sorts of people who are going to do the minimum to get by are going to be doing the minimum in whatever job they're doing as well. Might as well just give that job to someone who wants to work.
This kind of makes me wonder what the equilibrium standard of living would be if you forced everyone to have an equal share of society's outputs. What fraction of the population would still be willing to work to increase standard of living?  Or put another way, what is the allowable wealth/income gap to incentivize a sufficient portion of the population to work?

How do you even avoid class divides in the nonworking population, since let's say you were willing to provide them all with say toilets.  Even if you give them all the same model of toilet, some of them will get said toilet earlier than others.  So the "early recipients" will have a higher standard of living than the late recipients.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33366 on: September 22, 2019, 01:53:12 pm »

"Toilets" is a bad example since you can build toilet blocks and you don't necessarily need to distribute them.

But the solution is easy for some non-perishable good that's scarce and you need to hand them out in some order. Hand them out on an oldest-first basis. Sure, the 60 year old guy got his before you, but you're 40 by the time you got yours, so you get to enjoy yours for more years. So, you got yours later, but overall you enjoy more years of the higher standard of living than the guy who got one first, so your overall utility is higher.

Keep up excess production until you're handing them out at 18, then stabilize it as a rule that you get your personal one at 18. Only a small, set fraction of the population will be turning 18 at any specific time, and you will have the population records to perfectly plan for needed production levels to accommodate that, there will be no surprises.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 02:03:30 pm by Reelya »
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33367 on: September 22, 2019, 03:00:49 pm »

On the note of people with no motivation to work: People do want to feel useful, but for far too long we have conflated that with work - a recent example is trying to make it clear that being a stay at home parent is a job, effectively. People who don't contribute economically still contribute; just differently.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33368 on: September 22, 2019, 03:07:08 pm »

See also: artists, musicians, volunteers, hobbyists

Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33369 on: September 22, 2019, 03:13:39 pm »

See also: artists, musicians, volunteers, hobbyists
Exactly. :)
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33370 on: September 22, 2019, 03:57:59 pm »

On the note of people with no motivation to work: People do want to feel useful, but for far too long we have conflated that with work- a recent example is trying to make it clear that being a stay at home parent is a job, effectively. People who don't contribute economically still contribute; just differently.

That's mostly a consequence of the industrial revolution isn't it? It's also in part a culture issue, which is going to be more challenging to deal with.

We're in fact going through a similar type of economic, technological, and societal transition as the industrial revolution (I believe it does have a name, but I forget what it is) was and the general proccess of industrialization. It took maybe 40 years from the start of when it began getting disruptive I believe before things began settling down into a new paradgim. I may be talking about a different facet of it with the 40 years thing, but what's happening now is similar to other periods of transition/transformation as in the past.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33371 on: September 22, 2019, 04:20:54 pm »

But the solution is easy for some non-perishable good that's scarce and you need to hand them out in some order.  Hand them out on an oldest-first basis.
Interesting idea actually.

But how would you account for preferences?  For instance, what if there were white toilets and tan ones?  How do you decide who gets what color?  What happens if you have more variables, like single vs dual flush, round vs elongated bowl, etc.

I suppose if we live in a manufacturing utopia what you would hand out is not a good itself, but an order fulfillment slot?  That is "it's now your turn for a new X.  Please select the options you want and it will be delivered on <date>."

I could see that as a possibility actually.  It gets more interesting when it's not "durable goods" but something where the ordering timespan is much shorter than the production timespan, like food.  Maybe you'd have to just get the average consumer to better understand the concept of lead time?

There's also the question of how to deal with "warranty". Maybe if your product breaks between the normal ordering cycle time, you would get inserted into the queue early.

The other thought is - what about people who want things updated more often than the standard ordering cycle time?  Would you allow people to trade their slots?  Could you avoid abuse if you only allowed a one-for-one trade? I don't think you'd be able to "store" production slots.

Actually to expand on that - I wonder if you could improve things today (e.g., lessen the severity of business cycles) if we went more toward an order fulfillment culture instead of a retail "buy off the shelf" culture.  That way manufacturers wouldn't be guessing about their sales, they would just be fulfilling orders.

Anyway, this is getting rambling and I don't think it's really in the realm of politics so much as economic theorizing...
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33372 on: September 22, 2019, 04:34:54 pm »

Eh, I find this economic planning debate interesting. I do think that we need to *highly* disincentivize instant fulfillment things, like same day shipping, as it is highly inefficient.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33373 on: September 22, 2019, 05:00:31 pm »

But the solution is easy for some non-perishable good that's scarce and you need to hand them out in some order.  Hand them out on an oldest-first basis.
Interesting idea actually.

But how would you account for preferences?  For instance, what if there were white toilets and tan ones?  How do you decide who gets what color?  What happens if you have more variables, like single vs dual flush, round vs elongated bowl, etc.

I suppose if we live in a manufacturing utopia what you would hand out is not a good itself, but an order fulfillment slot?  That is "it's now your turn for a new X.  Please select the options you want and it will be delivered on <date>."

I could see that as a possibility actually.  It gets more interesting when it's not "durable goods" but something where the ordering timespan is much shorter than the production timespan, like food.  Maybe you'd have to just get the average consumer to better understand the concept of lead time?

There's also the question of how to deal with "warranty". Maybe if your product breaks between the normal ordering cycle time, you would get inserted into the queue early.

The other thought is - what about people who want things updated more often than the standard ordering cycle time?  Would you allow people to trade their slots?  Could you avoid abuse if you only allowed a one-for-one trade? I don't think you'd be able to "store" production slots.

Actually to expand on that - I wonder if you could improve things today (e.g., lessen the severity of business cycles) if we went more toward an order fulfillment culture instead of a retail "buy off the shelf" culture.  That way manufacturers wouldn't be guessing about their sales, they would just be fulfilling orders.

Anyway, this is getting rambling and I don't think it's really in the realm of politics so much as economic theorizing...
I wonder why we donít already do this, it seems to me that order filling would be easier than what we have now

hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33374 on: September 22, 2019, 09:03:10 pm »

But the solution is easy for some non-perishable good that's scarce and you need to hand them out in some order.  Hand them out on an oldest-first basis.
Interesting idea actually.

But how would you account for preferences?  For instance, what if there were white toilets and tan ones?  How do you decide who gets what color?  What happens if you have more variables, like single vs dual flush, round vs elongated bowl, etc.

I suppose if we live in a manufacturing utopia what you would hand out is not a good itself, but an order fulfillment slot?  That is "it's now your turn for a new X.  Please select the options you want and it will be delivered on <date>."

I could see that as a possibility actually.  It gets more interesting when it's not "durable goods" but something where the ordering timespan is much shorter than the production timespan, like food.  Maybe you'd have to just get the average consumer to better understand the concept of lead time?

There's also the question of how to deal with "warranty". Maybe if your product breaks between the normal ordering cycle time, you would get inserted into the queue early.

The other thought is - what about people who want things updated more often than the standard ordering cycle time?  Would you allow people to trade their slots?  Could you avoid abuse if you only allowed a one-for-one trade? I don't think you'd be able to "store" production slots.

Actually to expand on that - I wonder if you could improve things today (e.g., lessen the severity of business cycles) if we went more toward an order fulfillment culture instead of a retail "buy off the shelf" culture.  That way manufacturers wouldn't be guessing about their sales, they would just be fulfilling orders.

Anyway, this is getting rambling and I don't think it's really in the realm of politics so much as economic theorizing...
I wonder why we donít already do this, it seems to me that order filling would be easier than what we have now

A planned economy is SoCiAlIsM!!!!111 :o :o :o
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