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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3595802 times)

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33420 on: November 28, 2019, 03:18:55 am »

I am a strong proponent for letter of law, as long as those laws properly represent the popular consensus, and or will, of the people who make up that society.

Those laws can be horrible and oppressive as fuck-- as long as they represent the actual will of the public who lives under them, they are the laws they want and deserve.


What I have issue with, is when laws are enacted in contravention of popular will.  That is tyranny, and I oppose it.


(In the case of the US, since this is the Ameripol thread--)

I am opposed to the absurdly long copyright terms that currently exist.  These exist in contravention of the public's popular will, and exist at the behest of monied and incumbent industries. (Disney, Et al.)  It is tyranny.  I oppose it. 

Likewise, I am opposed to many of the Social Justice trends, because they try to ramrod ideology into law, that is not shared by the majority of the population.  That too is tyranny, and I oppose it.

The logical exception/point-of-umbrage to hold against my position, is for things like historical racism, and things of that nature.  I would counter that these things are clearly unoptimal, and should be avoided simply because of that; slavery is not an ideal solution to any kind of labor-economic situation. Likewise, the systemic bads caused by systemic racism are detrimental to the society.  However, if the majority of the society wants that, trying to force the issue with threat of violence (which is essentially what threat of imprisonment is), is logically identical to making a posse of minorities, and going on a vigilante spree;  The general public (who is opposed to the enforced changes) is held hostage either way.  It's tyranny, and I oppose it.  In the circumstances where what people demand is just plain fucked, they deserve the consequences of getting what they demanded.  Racism and things that are built on such, is just plain fucked, and has a lot of intrinsically negative consequences-- People who insist on it, deserve those consequences.  (EG, one of the natural consequences of shit like the KKK, is the formation of groups like the Black Panthers. If the society is producing such groups, through its desired mode of operation, it DESERVES these consequences. Likewise, the shit that happened in the UK several years ago resulted in the production of the IRA, and all the shit that happened because of that.  They DESERVED those natural consequences.  These days, our country is fucking in love over its fucking heels for refusing to accept climate change as being real. We DESERVE to have massive systemic crop failure, mass-property and investment losses in coastal areas, and infrastructure/supplyline instabilities from the resulting civic unrest that this decision will cause.)

The counter to that view, is naturally-- The minorities that are involved do not deserve the bads caused by the majority.  I agree, but the alternative is worse.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 03:31:29 am by wierd »
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The Ensorceler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33421 on: November 28, 2019, 04:56:06 am »

Ugh. That's the bare minimum. Immediate concern #1: a simple majority has free reign to commit genocide and cement itself as a majority forever. Therefore all groups smaller than 50% of the population must immediately cooperate to prevent this. Due to intersectionality, etc, this is in fact 99+% of the population. Therefore! Genocide in general (not specific) is always unpopular and always tyrannical, no matter who is willing to do it to others, because in the specific case of yourself you oppose it.
Government *must* abide by "don't become so unpopular that you get overthrown", as you describe. But it *should* follow the other kind of golden rule democracy that maximizes public good over private advantage. In the US in particular, decades of entrenched prosperity gospel/temporarily embarrased millionaire logic have undercut awareness of this.

There's probably more examples that further complicate things, but correctly identifying a central tenet of government doesn't make that the only one, or remotely safe to construct a society from by its lonesome.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33422 on: November 28, 2019, 05:06:54 am »

Corporate wellfare (gained by "Political donations" (which are "oh so totally not BRIBES-- It's POLITICAL SPEECH! HONEST!" /s), such as the afore mentioned endlessly increasing copyright terms, and a bevy of other bullshit in the modern world, are things I DEFINITELY oppose.


The issue becomes complicated with things like-- American intervention in places like the Middle East.  If the countries in the middle east WANT theocratic government-- and the citizens actively champion for, and demand this--- the US has no fucking business trying to "Spread Deomocracy!!(TM)" there.  Because doing so is in contravention of that demographic's will, and is tyranny.  (No matter how well intentioned the action is.)


The same is true for trying to impose Social-Justice themed reforms on a society that does not want them, or is not ready for them.  The incumbent generation that does not want these things are people too, and they should not be told to shut the fuck up and take it.  That's a dangerous precedent. The next generation will do the very same to you and yours--- May whatever god you ascribe to help you if the changes they want are more conservative and horrible than even Trump's supporter's most vivid wet dreams, because they will shut you down just as much.

Rule of law prevents this.  That is why it needs to be protected.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33423 on: November 28, 2019, 05:46:52 am »

I'm not entirely convinced that intersectionality (in practice) actually works like that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 06:21:32 am by Reelya »
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33424 on: November 28, 2019, 06:27:34 am »

And to that, I reply that storming over popular opinion with self-righteous indignation doesn't just turn you into exactly the caricature that your "enemies" have painted you to be- it turns you into the very caricature that you've painted your enemies to be.

Popular opinion as determined by massively flawed elections, rife with misinformation campaigns, disenfranchisement, and broken candidate selection processes?

To beat Hitler, become Hitler?

Please.

I suppose everyone who actually fought Hitler was Hitler?  Because these politics are literally matters of life or death for large numbers of people.  Accusing those who actually prioritize that above hand-wringing over the appearance of sterile stateliness of being as bad as Hitler is a really bad look.  Call them strategically misguided if you like, but "becoming Hitler" has very different, unbecoming implications.  Like I guess you're opposed to literal self-defense?  Nevermind that direct action, mass protest, and popular anger pressuring institutions has been responsible for basically every major improvement in our quality of political life throughout history.  We would have never had labor laws without strikers literally fighting violent battles against mercenaries and law enforcement.  I'm sure they faced the same sentiments from onlookers about their unseemly opposition to legality and popular will.  Trying to ramrod their ideology into law!  By golly!

(EG, one of the natural consequences of shit like the KKK, is the formation of groups like the Black Panthers. If the society is producing such groups, through its desired mode of operation, it DESERVES these consequences. Likewise, the shit that happened in the UK several years ago resulted in the production of the IRA, and all the shit that happened because of that.  They DESERVED those natural consequences.  These days, our country is fucking in love over its fucking heels for refusing to accept climate change as being real. We DESERVE to have massive systemic crop failure, mass-property and investment losses in coastal areas, and infrastructure/supplyline instabilities from the resulting civic unrest that this decision will cause.)

The counter to that view, is naturally-- The minorities that are involved do not deserve the bads caused by the majority.  I agree, but the alternative is worse.

I feel like in the same breath you are condemning civic unrest as a legitimate response to tyranny, while also saying that tyranny deserves to face civic unrest.  Unless you're saying that stuff like systemic racism isn't tyranny, because "popular will".  But I'd have some major bones to pick with you about how the heck you're measuring popular will.  I'd also posit that imposing unequal negative rights on anyone is tyranny, popular will or not.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 06:45:09 am by SalmonGod »
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33425 on: November 28, 2019, 06:44:30 am »

Just throwing a general +1 to Salmon here.

Weird, your concerns about trampling the will of the people sounded reasonable to me at first, but then I considered the use cases - it's very clearly an opening to tyranny of the majority, no matter how slim. Human rights should always take priority over "the majority".
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33426 on: November 28, 2019, 06:57:57 am »

There really isn't a middle ground, that's the problem.

You either optimize to what is "best" (subjectively) for the most people (Tyranny of the majority), or you optimize for what is "best" for a minority. (with all the precedent that produces.)



The correct solution to a "Shitty majority" is education based cultural revolution.  We are on the edge of one right now;  The older generation is in decline, and their "majority" policies will end with them, because they will cease being the majority.  The new majority will demand laws that suit their majority wishes.

Jumping the gun, and telling the boomers "Fuck you, you should be dead already." is basically what is being done, and it is incorrect and improper.  Wait for them to die, inherit the majority position, then enact your changes.


Subjugation of the minority is indeed shit; You will not hear any different from me on that.  But-- the alternative is far worse. (Because it violates the foundational principle on democratic representative government, and imposes a form of autocracy instead.  Once you do that, ANY autocrat can take that slot. You DO NOT WANT THAT. Really.)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 06:59:53 am by wierd »
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33427 on: November 28, 2019, 07:17:31 am »

Subjugation of the minority is indeed shit; You will not hear any different from me on that.  But-- the alternative is far worse. (Because it violates the foundational principle on democratic representative government, and imposes a form of autocracy instead.  Once you do that, ANY autocrat can take that slot. You DO NOT WANT THAT. Really.)

It's possible to have democratic processes more sophisticated than just a majority vote, which makes it more difficult to subjugate a minority.  You can also have human rights guaranteed by law that make it illegal to impose most forms of subjugation on a minority, so long as that minority is properly recognized as human beings... and this is theoretically how our government is actually supposed to function.  Instead of enshrining the rights of the majority to shit on the minority because "the alternative is worse", you could enshrine the human rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by law and be opposed to violations of that because the alternative is what's going on right now, and much of it should be illegal.

And when powerful institutions begin to supercede the law, engage in selective enforcement, disenfranchise, blatantly violate the human rights they are supposed to be guaranteeing, etc, it shouldn't be shameful at that point to meet those institutions on the terms of engagement they themselves set the precedent for.

And why the fuck am I even arguing this, considering how this conversation got started.

This began with a call to vote for Bernie, which somehow immediately instigated a tirade about sacrificing democracy to ramrod social justice into law.  Like... seriously?!?!  We're not even talking about illegal violence here.  We're really talking about how ***electing a candidate*** would be the death of democracy, and that electing a 78 year old man would be telling boomers to shut up and take it?

Why the hell does it invoke such ridiculous hysteria for anyone left of Pelosi to say anything, even here?
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33428 on: November 28, 2019, 07:21:52 am »

Which is--- RULE OF LAW.


This is contrary to the "Stuff the jury box!" approach, which is what I was deriding.

To wit:

I fundamentally reject the idea that there is any division between "government" and economics, or social politics and economics for that matter.

But if you're asking me if I'd pack the courts and ratfuck Republican shotcallers, you bet your ass I would. People's lives are too important to stand on nebulous procedures that god knows the right doesn't even pretend to follow either.

The centrists can have their motions well taken and their time allotted in hell.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 07:30:56 am by wierd »
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33429 on: November 28, 2019, 07:33:54 am »

Which is--- RULE OF LAW.


This is contrary to the "Stuff the jury box!" approach, which is what I was deriding.

To wit:

I fundamentally reject the idea that there is any division between "government" and economics, or social politics and economics for that matter.

But if you're asking me if I'd pack the courts and ratfuck Republican shotcallers, you bet your ass I would. People's lives are too important to stand on nebulous procedures that god knows the right doesn't even pretend to follow either.

The centrists can have their motions well taken and their time allotted in hell.
Uh, Weird.

That's just MSH saying that they would work within the letter of the law the same way the Republicans have been. Not stuffing a fuckin ballot box.
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33430 on: November 28, 2019, 07:53:02 am »

pack the courts, means packing the jury, and or-- packing the judges with ones that adhere to an ideology, over law.

See also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937


Basically, roosevelt added judges favorable to his initiative, to overturn a prior, legal ruling.  EG-- he favored an ideology over what was then legally decided.  It's very dangerous.


See also, "Rule of Law" vs "Rule of Men"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_man
https://www.fff.org/2016/02/26/the-rule-of-men-vs-the-rule-of-law/


Packing the courts is opening the door to rule of men.  It is unfathomably foolish.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 07:58:50 am by wierd »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33431 on: November 28, 2019, 08:00:18 am »

We're already at the pack the courts point, though. It's one of the few things this administration has unquestionably been making gains on, and something the GOP has been working at most to all of my life. A dem (or possibly even just non-gop) president or organization willing to ratfuck the GOP in the judge area would be restoring rule of law, not undermining it.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33432 on: November 28, 2019, 08:02:29 am »

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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33433 on: November 28, 2019, 08:10:05 am »

(I'm busy with family this morning but here's a take.  It's not really directed at wierd, just a jumping off point)
There really isn't a middle ground, that's the problem.

You either optimize to what is "best" (subjectively) for the most people (Tyranny of the majority), or you optimize for what is "best" for a minority. (with all the precedent that produces.)



The correct solution to a "Shitty majority" is education based cultural revolution.  We are on the edge of one right now;  The older generation is in decline, and their "majority" policies will end with them, because they will cease being the majority.  The new majority will demand laws that suit their majority wishes.

Jumping the gun, and telling the boomers "Fuck you, you should be dead already." is basically what is being done, and it is incorrect and improper.  Wait for them to die, inherit the majority position, then enact your changes.


Subjugation of the minority is indeed shit; You will not hear any different from me on that.  But-- the alternative is far worse. (Because it violates the foundational principle on democratic representative government, and imposes a form of autocracy instead.  Once you do that, ANY autocrat can take that slot. You DO NOT WANT THAT. Really.)
I don't think our problem is with tyranny of the majority so much as tyranny of a plurality.  I'm not sure which social justice agendas don't already have majority support, but we don't rule by democratic referendum.  It's inherently anti-democratic, literally by design, and to some extent I understand why.  But it does mean that a particularly well unified minority bloc is able to dominate American politics with literally unpopular laws and execution.  All it takes is fanatic dedication to the bloc rather than any individual issues.  This often appears like hypocrisy, or people voting against their interests, because in the short term it's both of those things.  In the long term, it has a strangehold on the nation.

Intersectionality to me is a reaction to that, *without* demanding a literal democracy (which has its own, populist, issues):
Ugh. That's the bare minimum. Immediate concern #1: a simple majority has free reign to commit genocide and cement itself as a majority forever. Therefore all groups smaller than 50% of the population must immediately cooperate to prevent this. Due to intersectionality, etc, this is in fact 99+% of the population. Therefore! Genocide in general (not specific) is always unpopular and always tyrannical, no matter who is willing to do it to others, because in the specific case of yourself you oppose it.
The majority is being, well, oppressed.  It makes sense to combine voting power against that, particularly for a concept as benign as equal opportunity.

It seems more natural than the Right's combination of corporate interests and... moral conservativism.  It's amazing to me how well the Right stays together.  They do have the campaign money and politicized pulpits, it's just remarkable how strong a union they formed.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33434 on: November 28, 2019, 08:28:17 am »

Turning what would otherwise *BE* a strong, unified majority (which largely aligns on the views of certain issues), into a plurality of small minorities, and pitting them against each other--- THAT is how the GOP (and also the democratic party) sustain themselves, and their platforms.

It's not "99% of US residents VS 1% that owns everything", now instead it is "Whites VS Blacks Vs Asians, Vs Hispanics, VS $Other".  It's "Straight VS Gay", and "Pro choice VS Pro Life".


Identity politics is the death of democracy, because by its very nature, it divides what is otherwise a unified whole, that has aligned interests.


"Social Justice" movements latch on to identity politics to gain momentum and power.  Is being shit on as a minority view holder shit? ABSOLUTELY.  Is having 99% of the public getting fucked financially, legally, and politically worse, because the message is being diverted, and exploited by the powerful much much worse?

Yes. Yes it is.
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