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[Il Palazzo]

Wait, what happened? I haven't been following this closely, to say the least. Last year or so Warren appeared to be hitting all the right (left?) notes with the left.

[SalmonGod]

It's fucking wild how badly former Clinton staffers managed to sink Harris and now are sinking Warren. It's legitimately impressive how bad the Clintonite camp is at politics, and how good they think they are at politics because of a couple narrow victories in the 90s.

And Warren is a disgusting traitor to the left movement who's only still in this race to make sure Biden wins, capital recuperation in action, etc, etc.

So I've gotta admit this whole thing with Warren intrigues me.  Because I've known her name for much longer than I've known Bernie's name, mainly for seeing her positioned as the front spokesperson for anti-corporate legislation or scathing house floor speeches throughout the 2000's.  It's really surprising to me to hear all this talk the last few months about how she's a traitor to leftist/progressive politics.

I actually haven't paid very close attention to her campaign.  Just enough to know that I'd still prefer Bernie over her.  But in the beginning I thought that if she won, it would still be a major victory.  I'd like to have a better understanding of why this is not the case.  Mind providing a quick summary of points as to why she's a traitor?  Or do you have a link to a good write-up anywhere?

[dragdeler]

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[fqllve]

Wait, what happened? I haven't been following this closely, to say the least. Last year or so Warren appeared to be hitting all the right (left?) notes with the left.

Depends on how far left you are! Especially since summer the tide has kinda turned against her. Her evasiveness on Medicare-for-all has made her pretty unpopular as well as her ultimate support of capitalism. A lot of people (including myself) think she's too centrist to win. I don't personally think she's a traitor or trying to throw the election in favor of Biden. She's an ok candidate but ok candidates don't win elections when the opponent fires up his base as much as Trump does.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Wait, what happened? I haven't been following this closely, to say the least. Last year or so Warren appeared to be hitting all the right (left?) notes with the left.

Since then Warren has repeatedly pivoted right, as Sanders voters stuck with him instead of going over to her. She all-but-disowned Medicare For All back around November.

A few days ago, the Warren campaign attempted two attacks on the Sanders campaign: One, that Sanders was committing the horrid crime of...instructing his volunteers to try and win the election for him instead of Warren when phonebanking. In perhaps the most tepid language possible so it wasn't much of a thing, and soon overshadowed by her "staffers" deciding to "leak" a story to CNN that Sanders had a year ago told Warren that a woman couldn't win the Presidential election.

This is of course ridiculous for several reasons, not the least of which being that Bernie publicly and infamously tried to convince Warren to run in 2016 instead of him, and the story almost immediately started backfiring. Sanders immediately denied, Warren said nothing and then later said it was true. Cue the debate. The debate is very obviously rigged, even more than any other before it, against Bernie specifically since he's becoming frontrunner in all the early primaries. Warren's answers personally make me think she was given the questions ahead of time, but regardless CNN of course decides to address the """"""controversy"""""" that they themselves published.

Sanders masterfully denies on stage, explaining why it makes zero sense that he ever would have said anything like that. CNN responds with "Senator, you're not...heh, you're not saying something we published is untrue, are you?" Sanders again denies. CNN immediately moves over to Warren and asks her how she felt about Sanders telling her a woman couldn't be President. This was a realtime exchange. Warren again says it happened but she just doesn't want to talk about it.

And then, the pièce de résistance: After the debate, the candidates all shake hands as usual...but when Bernie offers Warren his hand she pulls back. They exchange some words, looked heated to me, and Bernie walks off. Steyer stood awkwardly watching this as if he'd been shocked with a cattle prod, which to be fair is his default expression.

Cut to today, and twitter is abuzz with such trends as #NeverWarren, #CNNIsTrash, #RefundWarren, and my personal favorite #WarrenIsASnake. Media about this is pretty decidedly on Sanders' side, save CNN, and people are real mad. As in, "stories about Warren college associations defecting to Bernie" mad.

Well. At least they didn't try to call him an antisemite.

[Max™]

Heh, not to disparage her education or candidacy, as I really do think she'd be better for the country... but calling an Okie brainy amuses the hell out of me.

[dragdeler]

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[SalmonGod]

That all does reek hard of Hillary campaign shit.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So I've gotta admit this whole thing with Warren intrigues me.  Because I've known her name for much longer than I've known Bernie's name, mainly for seeing her positioned as the front spokesperson for anti-corporate legislation or scathing house floor speeches throughout the 2000's.  It's really surprising to me to hear all this talk the last few months about how she's a traitor to leftist/progressive politics.

I actually haven't paid very close attention to her campaign.  Just enough to know that I'd still prefer Bernie over her.  But in the beginning I thought that if she won, it would still be a major victory.  I'd like to have a better understanding of why this is not the case.  Mind providing a quick summary of points as to why she's a traitor?  Or do you have a link to a good write-up anywhere?

- Refused to run when Bernie asked her to run, then ran knowing she'd occupy Bernie's base to some extent. Also didn't endorse him in 2016, staying explicitly "neutral".
- Pivoted away from progressive policies before the primary elections, which, holy shit.
- Rhetorically accepted all the credit for M4A and other Bernie policies from the corporate media while simultaneously working to muddle the waters on them and see them fail, as most encapsulated by this "public option for three years and *coughmidtermelectionscough* followed by Medicare For All who want it and with read my lips no new taxes, for realsies".
- Took on a bunch of Clinton staffers, which hey, turns out that paid some great dividends now.
- Allegedly tried to convince the Squad to co-endorse her with Bernie, which is both politically dumb and an early backstab attempt.
- Made a big deal about a "no corporate doners" pledge that only applies to the primary and then went to fundraiser dinners anyway. Then implied Bernie was taking dirty money because he wouldn't renounce Our Revolution PAC.
- Supported Reagan and Bush when they were in office, still likes Reagan, was a Republican until she was 45 years old.
- Dithered on US military aggression with this Iran thing, focused on how killing "a terrorist" was good but Trump needed to have Congress' approval.
- General political incompetence, which in our precarious situation is essentially a crime as far as I'm concerned, her instincts are beyond horrible with everything from the Native DNA test debacle to the total lack of focus on POC issues for a year even though the only campaign whiter than hers' is Buttigieg's.
- Is still running now, when we all know damn well she won't win a thing, and would all but ensure a Sanders presidency if she dropped.

She's a fuckin disaster. She's such a disaster that even though I totally emotionally abstract from politics most of the time, I feel a personal offense at the way she treated Bernie yesterday, especially given that he's essentially fighting to save the whole fucking planet when he by all rights should be relaxing on a beach somewhere. To actually play such an unbelievable, bullheadedly cynical political smear for the sake of her own pride now of all times is unforgivable in my eyes. At least Biden and Klobuchar are honest about being deathdrive freaks who want to ride the flames one last time before the fall of night.

But if the response Warren is getting is any indication, this is about as good as could be hoped for short of her actually dropping out.

[SalmonGod]

I'd seen most of those points floating around, but hadn't truly absorbed them until now.  Yeah, it's sinking in...

[Frumple]

There's frothing piles of horseshit floating in them, but I don't nearly have the energy to address it. Fucking politics

Her winning would be at least as major a victory for the bleeding edge of the U.S. Left as a sanders one, though. Possibly more, given her indication of a willingness to go for the throat administratively in ways bernie hasn't been doing, and her history with organization building and whatnot (something probably extra important considering the state department is currently in fucking shambles).

It's just about guaranteed she'd handle the actual administration aspects of a presidency better than sanders, and with results damn near identical in terms of trajectory. Other aspects are more questionable, but the accusations of her being a traitor to leftist causes are just straight fucking nonsense reliant on ignoring basically goddamn everything she's done since she switched parties, and most of them seem driven by having the sheer fucking gall of not being an exact carbon copy of bernie or completely subservient to his whims or some shit.

[SalmonGod]

Frumple, I like you otherwise, but your opinions concerning anything where Sanders is involved, even tangentially, basically became incomprehensible after he turned you into a pillar of salt in 2016.

[fqllve]

It doesn't matter if she'd be a better president than Sanders or Trump though. That doesn't win elections, that's the same strategy the Democrats have pulled over and over and lost repeatedly with. She's got too much baggage, Trump would eviscerate her in a debate, and she just doesn't inspire people the way Sanders does.

[Frumple]

Last I was paying attention, all of the major dem candidates (except maybe pete, to the extent he is one?) are showing every sign of tearing up Trump in the general. And fairly legitimately, not that "well, actually the polls are neck and neck but let's not mention that" crap. That won't be an easy or clean fight, but it's one I'm not as worried about as what comes after given how much the shitgibbon has pissed off the country.

Frumple, I like you otherwise, but your opinions concerning anything where Sanders is involved, even tangentially, basically became incomprehensible after he turned you into a pillar of salt in 2016.

Man, sanders is fucking fine. I won't vote for him in the primary due to age, but if he were younger he'd probably be my second pick or a legitimate contender for first. I got problems with him and I disliked some of his actions pretty hard after 2016, but of the major candidates he's the only other legit progressive candidate running, and I'd prefer him over biden or pete without hesitation if he weren't so goddamn old (as is, if warren does drop my vote's probably going to be "not these geriatric shits" and then taking whatever comes out the primary afterwards). I probably am less coherent these days, but that's 'cause I'm even more fucking exhausted than I used to be and I'm living with and shittily trying to care for two people starting to degenerate from what's either dementia or Alzheimer's. Life's pretty shit and I don't have nearly as much in me as I wish I did when it came to this stuff.

 That don't change that this traitor to the left warren crap is fucking nonsense, though.

[Max™]

I mean, unless zombie Jesus shows up to run, Sanders is definitely the best zombie jew available, but I think it is worth noting that despite literal decades of hatemongering by republicans and her complete inability to remember how to human, Trump lost to Hillary by damn near 3 million votes, and is unlikely to pull off the same electoral college bullshit again if the 2018 election was anything to go off of.

Warren could actually legitimately connect to voters with reagan portraits in their living room that are rightfully disgusted by the big orange turdbaby, and despite her dweebishness at times she's far more normal and likeable than Hillary was, while Sanders falls victim too often to yelling at cloud syndrome, and honestly only seems viable because he's got a dude with his brains oozing out of his ears to contrast him against standing on stage with him.