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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3532629 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37140 on: May 31, 2020, 10:18:29 am »

I wont try anymore either, just really hard hope that the things in your country gets better and that fucking cop and all of those that are so fucking retarded to judge people on their skin color, religion, sexual orientation or country of origin instead of their actions manage to learn better. And that your fantasies don't come true.

I'll stick to other threads for my sanity sake. I apologize if being rude to you guys in someway.

No hard feelings.  Your anger about your own country's situation is understandable.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37141 on: May 31, 2020, 02:11:08 pm »

Good thread that effectively summarizes how capitalism intersects with what's going on right now

I agree and disagree. Most of it is true (except for the standard police-hating nonsense) and the mixing of classism and racism is understandable because, we'll, it's how US culture has mixed it up, of course.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The class hostility you're describing between skilled/semi-skilled workers and unskilled laborers was prominent here as well, and probably every industrial country. The US did once have a major labor movement, with all of the easily-exploited internal hostility between trade unions, industrial unions, and manual laborers that you described. However, here racism and nativism was an additional factor that exacerbated the conflicts everywhere. The earlier nativist reactions against immigrants from the British isles and Germany gave way to racism against southern and eastern European immigrants (who were not considered to be "white" until much later), while the western US developed intensely racist attitudes toward Japanese and Chinese immigrants. The southeastern US, meanwhile, preserved much of the old character of slavery during industrialization, with rural black workers making up most of the industrial laborers (a common arrangement in building the southern railroads was to keep the black laborers confined in temporary camps, marched each day to work and back under white armed guard).

Anyway, I'm not sure what my point was, I think I've lost the thread of the conversation. I'd recommend Fall of the House of Labor as a good book for the history of the American labor movement, if anyone's interested.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37142 on: May 31, 2020, 02:22:33 pm »

The class hostility you're describing between skilled/semi-skilled workers and unskilled laborers was prominent here as well, and probably every industrial country.

And it still is.  Lots of rhetoric these days frames conflict between the "professional/managerial class" and retail or fast food workers and it's exactly the same thing.  Literally arguing that someone who works at McDonalds doesn't deserve a pay rate that it's possible to survive on.  At the same time, boy do they ever want that McDonalds staffed.  Pandemic shutdowns showed us just how badly they want those workers.  They just don't think they deserve to be able to survive while serving them.   ::)

I'm sure I'm not saying anything we aren't already aware of here.  But still worth reinforcing.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37143 on: May 31, 2020, 02:53:18 pm »

One thing to consider is that modern managerial systems emerged mostly out of a desire to transfer necessary industrial skills away from the workers wherever possible and toward a new hierarchy controlled by a managed corporation, making it easier to use unskilled workers who may be easily fired and replaced and are less likely to be able to unionize. The fast food example is great, since the industry is critically underpinned by using a centrally controlled formula dictated to unskilled workers, rather than relying on the abilities of the cooks as is usually the case in small restaurants. In the past this also applied to industrial trades that gradually had the value of their skills undercut by scientific management and machinery with more sophisticated engineering.

So in that sense the perception workers have of structural conflict between managers and workers makes some sense (or about as much sense as worker apprehension to labor-saving machinery and automation), but additionally I think there's an argument to be made that if it were ever really possible for managers to be in solidarity with workers, they would cease to be managers given what their purpose really is.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37144 on: May 31, 2020, 03:31:16 pm »

>  Technically, a communist country has never existed.

found the useful idiot*.


* no offense intended, it's the technical definition used from both sides.
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Cheesy Honkers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37145 on: May 31, 2020, 03:50:21 pm »

>  Technically, a communist country has never existed.

found the useful idiot*.


* no offense intended, it's the technical definition used from both sides.
How diplomatic. I guess using actual definitions is being an idiot now.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37146 on: May 31, 2020, 04:45:29 pm »

He was meaning "useful idiot" in the scope of how the soviet union described hippy kids in the 60s, who were promoting communism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

I will agree though that it is misapplied here.  No attempt to date at communism has been the thing Marx championed for.  This is because human nature is to hoard resources for one's self and family, at the expense of others.  That goes 180 degrees contrary to the mindset needed for communism, and is what necessitates the formation of an enforcer class--- and once you do that, you dont have Marxist communism, because you have classes in the population, with one class having vastly more power than the other.

I am of the opinion that humanity is incapable of true communism.
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Cheesy Honkers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37147 on: May 31, 2020, 05:02:29 pm »

I know the phrase. And if charity is against human nature (lol), pray tell me how is it a thing? Why should we then maintain a system that exploits a supposed flaw in human nature and not instead move onto a system that avoids the problem of stockpiling by actually providing what is needed to everyone? What would you even stockpile? Spaghetti-os?

And if charity is against human nature, why oh why do we rely on it now to feed and clothe and house the downtrodden? Why are there thousands of functioning charities that actually help people? Maybe they don't know that what they do is against their nature.

Sorry for the condescension, by the way. I'm just an ass
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37148 on: May 31, 2020, 05:06:08 pm »

Communism as described by Marx is the collapse of class stratification and return to pre-agricultural social equality in a post-industrial technological setting. The words "true communism" are just a right-wing meme and the kind of nonsense that Marx wrote to avoid. Whether one thinks it is legitimate or not the Marxist conception of socioeconomic history isn't that difficult to follow:

"Primitive communism" (I don't like this term, but have no replacement) -> Class stratification divides society into nobility, merchants, and workers with nobility dominant -> Contradictions of noble rule and industrial revolution destroys the nobility and their place is taken by former merchant class, now capitalists -> (you are around here, somewhere) Capitalism destroys itself by its inherent contradictions, and power is transferred to the workers. This is socialism. -> Development of socialism collapses what remains of class stratification and the state structure. This is communism.

So you can see why whenever I see people say things like "I'm a socialist, but not a communist" I feel my head starting to explode.
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Cheesy Honkers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37149 on: May 31, 2020, 05:11:40 pm »

Communism as described by Marx is the collapse of class stratification and return to pre-agricultural social equality in a post-industrial technological setting. The words "true communism" are just a right-wing meme and the kind of nonsense that Marx wrote to avoid. Whether one thinks it is legitimate or not the Marxist conception of socioeconomic history isn't that difficult to follow:

"Primitive communism" (I don't like this term, but have no replacement) -> Class stratification divides society into nobility, merchants, and workers with nobility dominant -> Contradictions of noble rule and industrial revolution destroys the nobility and their place is taken by former merchant class, now capitalists -> (you are around here, somewhere) Capitalism destroys itself by its inherent contradictions, and power is transferred to the workers. This is socialism. -> Development of socialism collapses what remains of class stratification and the state structure. This is communism.

So you can see why whenever I see people say things like "I'm a socialist, but not a communist" I feel my head starting to explode.
Completely agreed. The reason why people say "I'm a socialist, but not a communist" is because they sadly only share the sentiment, but haven't yet read enough Marxist theory to substantiate their worldview with a good theoretical base.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37150 on: May 31, 2020, 05:19:23 pm »

I don't believe in any universal description of human nature.

It's common belief that it's human nature to hoard and tribalise, because past conditions of material hardship encouraged organization structures that empowered those most successful at being greedy and tribalistic.  Those material conditions no longer exist, but the organization structures survive because their focus on centralization of material wealth and power makes the fuckers in charge of that apparatus really hard to dig out of their positions.  And they actively, relentlessly campaign to psychologically abuse the entire population into believing that they are the representation of human nature, thus nothing can ever be better than what it is, thus they are not so bad and not worth fighting very hard to get rid of.

Meanwhile, any person on the planet who has worked a service job will tell you that the poorer a person is, the better they are likely to tip.  I did around 700 trips with Uber.  Drove some plainly extremely wealthy people who spoke very positively of their experience with me.  Not a single one ever tipped a dime.  Got countless tips from people barely getting by who wouldn't allow me to turn them down. 

It's not about human nature.  Our culture just worships greed because greedy people are in charge because if they weren't greedy they wouldn't be in charge.

Which is why fighting to end capitalism and working to improve our culture are one and the same.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Cheesy Honkers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37151 on: May 31, 2020, 05:27:27 pm »

It's socialism or barbarism. Either we combat outdated mode of production and progress into a modern society or we regress to a tribal, infighting society. The bourgeioisie wants the latter. Everyone but them and their underlings would benefit from the former.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37152 on: May 31, 2020, 05:57:09 pm »

Pandemic shutdowns showed us just how badly they want those workers.  They just don't think they deserve to be able to survive while serving them.   ::)


Let me tell you sometime about the situation of healthcare workers in general and healthcare workers in Spain in particular
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not that in other places the vast majority of medical staff arenīt treated like shit, but in the particular case of Spain precarious job offers are the standard even for senior staff. Vast majority of those under 50 are chaining contracts in some way. In hard to cover places they chain one-year-contracts. In places where they are more confident theyīll get people they chain weekly or monthly contracts. In some extreme cases they put people on mon-to-friday contracts, fire them, and then rehire them the following Monday.

All this is very much illegal under EU law BTW. But unfortunately national courts tend to ignore any requests, getting lawsuits to the EU courts takes years and money, and in many cases they tend to turn a blind eye anyway. Like I said, these practices are far from extraordinary in Europe. What is unusual is that theyīre so common even with specialists. You donīt shake the feeling that for the administration youīre disposable crap.

And yes, this shit does wreak havoc on assistential continuity (and experience, for that matter). And yes, despite the goverment acting as if they had a specialist-printing machine, labor shortages have begun to be felt for the last few years.



« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 06:08:09 pm by ChairmanPoo »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37153 on: May 31, 2020, 06:10:17 pm »

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Yeah. If you're gonna steal a stethoscope don't brag about it, or you'll get busted in a matter of months.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37154 on: May 31, 2020, 06:32:51 pm »

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Yeah. If you're gonna steal a stethoscope don't brag about it, or you'll get busted in a matter of months.
Back in medical school, a now retired internal medicine professor told me that my littman would last me for the rest of my career... or realistically until someone stole it.


While it was a humorous exaggeration, itīs not far off mark. Itīs not unusual for people to lose their steths. Not least because if you dont have one on hand you might end up grabbing whichever is at hand and using that.  My mentor during speciality training if it came up used to grab one of the cheap ones the nurses used and dumping them anywhere later. This resulted in random caches of stethoscopes turning up from time to time. Itīd be hypocritical from me to criticise that when Iīve followed suit afterwards. 
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There's two kinds of performance reviews: the one you make they don't read, the one they make whilst they sharpen their daggers
Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.
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