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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3593404 times)

scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37155 on: June 01, 2020, 12:52:29 am »

Communism as described by Marx is the collapse of class stratification and return to pre-agricultural social equality in a post-industrial technological setting. The words "true communism" are just a right-wing meme and the kind of nonsense that Marx wrote to avoid. Whether one thinks it is legitimate or not the Marxist conception of socioeconomic history isn't that difficult to follow:

"Primitive communism" (I don't like this term, but have no replacement) -> Class stratification divides society into nobility, merchants, and workers with nobility dominant -> Contradictions of noble rule and industrial revolution destroys the nobility and their place is taken by former merchant class, now capitalists -> (you are around here, somewhere) Capitalism destroys itself by its inherent contradictions, and power is transferred to the workers. This is socialism. -> Development of socialism collapses what remains of class stratification and the state structure. This is communism.

So you can see why whenever I see people say things like "I'm a socialist, but not a communist" I feel my head starting to explode.

Alas, the woes of the prescriptionist scholar
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37156 on: June 01, 2020, 03:25:18 am »

I think I need to clarify my statement.  Seems people misinterpreted it-- quite badly too.


When I say that it is human nature to hoard resources, I do not mean "To the level of the 1%."  I more mean "They will hoard resources until they feel comfortable, then they will dole out small amounts of resources to others they see as less advantaged, but mostly for the personal ego boost; they are still hoarding resources, as they have it comfortable, if not lavish, while others suffer and starve."

"Altruism" does exist, but not at sufficient levels to erase class divisions. Rather, the altruism exists because of class divisions, and in some perverse ways, perpetuates these divisions. 

Additionally, it is not possible for every person in a large societal setting to know the socioeconomic conditions and details of all other participants in that system (Dunbar's number is FAAAAR too low!), and the notion that all participants can (and will) engage fairly is fallacious.  Even among people with a life calling for service, there is such a thing as "Caregiver burnout."  Your ability to care for other people is *NOT* infinite. This is VERY well documented among healthcare workers.  Being a little selfish is NECESSARY for preservation of one's health and sanity.

https://caregiver.com/articles/fighting_caregiver_fatigue/

The impetus behind Marx's brand of communism is that everyone is essentially a caregiver to all other participants in the system.  IDEALLY, all people will contribute, and have an impulse to contribute more than they receive, but this is not possible, because of limits of human cognition and limits on human ability to "care", literally.

Once people reach that level of emotional exhaustion, they can flip easily 180 degrees from "Care centered worldview" to "Bald-faced resentment."  Marx's communism expects and demands "Care centered worldview" from all of its participants, 100% of the time.  It is *NOT* possible for humans to do that.


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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37157 on: June 01, 2020, 03:42:19 am »

It was a trip watching that thread shared where the dude lays out the problems with capitalism and points out why the conversation is steered to avoid any progress towards solving those problems--as it generally involves getting rid of the capitalism part--and acting like obviously capitalism is the best because it's the best if it wasn't the best it wouldn't be called capitalism right?

You people are arguing against the idea that it's problematic to have a small group of people say "all this stuff is mine forever" or "I made this so I get paid for it exclusively forever and my kids do too" when it's so obviously a problem.

I don't need a billionaire lifestyle, I don't want one, that kind of wasteful spending and accumulation would personally wrack me with guilt constantly. Living comfortably enough that I could afford to get my fucking teeth fixed would be awesome, there is clearly enough stuff in the world, we could distribute it well enough but we're stuck in this mindset by... you guessed it: people and things which benefit from it.

No, corporations aren't people, until we can execute them they need to fucking suffer in their role as subservient things.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37158 on: June 01, 2020, 04:14:47 am »

Phhhhhtt!!

No, I am a very vocal detractor from the Intellectual Property Tycoon mindset.


That's not the problem.  The problem, is that expecting somebody to labor endlessly for the benefit of another person, who for whatever reason, is unable to labor, is unreasonable.  This is exemplified and demonstrated through caregiver fatigue, which is why I specifically put a spotlight on it.

Communism instructs "Each according to his ability, to each, according to his need."  EG, those that are able to labor, should labor-- for those that are unable to labor, and have unmet needs.  The natural parallel is found in elder care settings.  Those people are too old and infirm to care for themselves, and require constant total care.  The demands of that on caregivers causes baldfaced resentment, even in people who are deeply emotionally attached to the people receiving the care. 

This leads to a dichotomy, and an easily exploited vulnerability in the system:

First, the dichotomy--  The notion that there is no class divisions of any kind trainwrecks into the reality that there are quadraplegics and other special class citizens that will, through no fault of their own, consume vastly more than they can produce.  This is duplicitous doublethink.  The reality is inescapable, and no amount of self-induced cogitative dissonance is going to remove it.  This creates a stepping stone in the mental landscape to create other class divisions, which results in a stratified society, not a universal society.

Then, the vulnerability--  Due to the harsh reality pointed out above, coupled with the functional equivalent of caregiver fatigue suffered by the "supporting class" (eg, those that labor, and MUST labor, for failure to labor results in the intrinsic harm of the recipient classes), this class becomes vulnerable to resentment, and can thus be leveraged by ner'do'wells.  Humans DO NOT exist (mentally) in "objective reality". They exist within the confines of their mental conceptual frameworks of that reality.  That framework is maleable, and that perception of it can be thus manipulated.  If one thing should be patently obvious about modern society in the capitalist dystopia we find ourselves in, it is that "Perception Management" is totally a thing, and is *VERRRRYYY* effective.   

(It is via this mechanism that the Intellectual Property Tycoons convince the public that it is "Theft!!" for their works to ever enter the public domain, among other abuses.)

I would argue that Marx's view of the ideal situation is at best "Meta-stable", and in practice "Intrinsically unstable."  It is just one social movement away from complete collapse, at all times, and that is assuming you are willing to overlook the intrinsic duplicity involved in overlooking the obvious divide between the caregiver, and the one cared for.  (While not their fault, and if they were able to they would certainly give more, the quadraplegic bound to the wheelchair cannot offer the caregiver anything other than their gratitude.  The caregiver cannot eat gratitude, nor wear it, not drink it, nor do anything with it in a material sense.  Meanwhile, they are expending vast sums of material resources and time. This dichotomy SHOULD NOT be overlooked. Ugly realities like these NEED to be addressed in meaningful, non-hand-waved manners. Appropriate measures must be integrated to assure that the caregiver and the care recipient, both have all of their needs met-- AND-- that the social perceptions of those needs are kept in a correct and proper fashion;  It is VERY easy to malign the care recipient as a "Useless eater", and it is also VERY easy to malign the burning-out caregiver as "Callous, cruel, and unsympathetic to the needs of others" because they needed, AND TOOK, some personal time away from that kind of labor (or took some other material assist that they needed to keep their life together).

This latter is especially true, and you can find examples of it all over social media, where the "rest of the society" reacts without proper knowledge or comprehension, based on their emotional perceptions of the periphery of a situation, without delving into the details or underlying circumstances, then engages in a judgemental and officious manner.  (See for instance, the cases of doxxing against completely innocent people who were captured on camera walking past white power and nazi gatherings.  people that were literally just on the sidewalk, trying to get past, but lumped in with "THE HATED!", and punished without regret or oversight.) 

The truly sociopathic among us see these kinds of behaviors and mechanisms as means to twist the system to their favor, and to oust potential rivals or sources of animosity toward themselves;  EG, ways to seize power, and then leverage it for self-gratification and empowerment.  As such, failure to observe and genuinely intercede on these failures is actively inviting exploitation.


Marx appears to operate from a disconnected utopian fantasy about human nature, rather than accepting these ugly details that manifest; His proposed system does not give proper gravitas to these human failings, and as such, his system cannot function with humans.





« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 04:16:29 am by wierd »
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37159 on: June 01, 2020, 04:25:14 am »

I'm already converted, no need to bother, naive anarchist longing for gay space communism a la The Culture here.

Also, how fucking bad at messaging can this dipshit be:
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37160 on: June 01, 2020, 04:37:31 am »

Gay Space Communism solved the caregiver dichotomy with a servile machine caste.  Specifically, in the form of omni-fabricators, and non-sentient but highly capable computers. (Replicator kiosk things, machine generation routines strong enough to produce sentient holograms, et al.) In so doing, all humans exist as the "care recipient" role, and can thus be equal.

The writers of the series were not blind to this, which is why they introduced aspects of "machine life" into the mix.  When the machines are alive, and have wills, wants, and dreams of their own (Be they androids like Data, or pure machine code, like The Doctor), then there is once more a class divide within the society. (which is then exploited narratively to create drama.)

(At least, in the "star Trek" kind of gay space communism.  Foundation Series style gay space communism has a similar potential failing, in that it has a nonhuman class involved that does not suffer human failings, performing the Caregiver role.  Specifically, the sentient planetary AIs, which do not suffer emotional fatigue from providing care endlessly.)



« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 04:39:32 am by wierd »
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37161 on: June 01, 2020, 05:22:06 am »

and acting like obviously capitalism is the best because it's the best if it wasn't the best it wouldn't be called capitalism right?

Capital, old chap!


You people are arguing against the idea that it's problematic to have a small group of people say "all this stuff is mine forever" or "I made this so I get paid for it exclusively forever and my kids do too" when it's so obviously a problem.

Honestly I'd have much, much less of a problem with it if copy right was forever but just limited to the author and their descendants. Then you could literally track when something becomes so pervasive in the populace because shared ancestry that it enters the shared cultural heritage ;)

The problem for me is much less the creator's rights being overly chronic but the transfer of copyrights to corporations. Forever creator's copy right could be okay because people don't live forever, they die. But forever copy right that can be bought and sold from person to person or corp to corp forev3r is bad.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37162 on: June 01, 2020, 06:42:53 am »


I will agree though that it is misapplied here.  No attempt to date at communism has been the thing Marx championed for. 


the core of the issue is that communism single mindedly focus on wealth (wealth creation, but still) as if that is the only source of power, completely ignoring to address political power (power from large group of likely minded individuals, multiplied by their ability to bear arms) and bureaucratic power (the power at the seams between political groups agreements)

of course "no true communism" has ever existed, such thing cannot exist, because it's inherently unstable: while everyone looks at wealth, enterprising individuals scoop up political and bureaucratic power for themselves, their family and their tribe.

"no true communism" entirely misses the points that are to be learned from every implementation that there was.

and that without even considering the finer details and issue in wealth redistribution, like access to luxuries, or even what a luxury item is.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37163 on: June 01, 2020, 07:13:13 am »

Infinite transferable copyrights isn't really "capitalism" though.  It's regulatory capture, which can happen in any system.  Some would argue that it is actually anti-capitalism, or maybe neo-capitalism, because it is imposing scarcity where none really exists.  At any rate, a copyright isn't capital in the traditional sense.  The capital is the ability to create new works, or the physical equipment to create copies, or the physical copies themselves.

Note though that while "permission" is not capital it is a thing that has value.  And because it is not a physical thing, it's easy to set up systems where it can distort markets immensely (*cough* medical industry *cough*).
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37164 on: June 01, 2020, 08:03:43 am »

I'm already converted, no need to bother, naive anarchist longing for gay space communism a la The Culture here.

Also, how fucking bad at messaging can this dipshit be:

why this picture?
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37165 on: June 01, 2020, 09:57:45 am »

Lights are out, nobody's working, Trump and cohorts don't give a fuck about the riots and police violence.

EDIT: That, or Trump got so scared that he's too busy pissing his pants in the presidential anti-nuke and anti-negro oppressed minority bunker.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 09:59:19 am by martinuzz »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37166 on: June 01, 2020, 09:58:58 am »

If this is yesterday, they actually aren't in there. They all went to a bunker for some reason.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37167 on: June 01, 2020, 10:02:40 am »

If this is yesterday, they actually aren't in there. They all went to a bunker for some reason.
Some protesters got onto the lawn is probably why.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37168 on: June 01, 2020, 01:59:44 pm »

I do appreciate that the protests are sticking around while things also seem to be getting more peaceful.
I support the protests and the overall message.

Trouble still pops up, but more and more evidence is showing up that police are instigating it, or at the very least intentionally letting it happen to send a message.
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ggamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37169 on: June 01, 2020, 05:55:16 pm »

Mob mentality. Use social media to propagate the meme of "cops are provoking crackdowns," and people will start policing property destruction, or at least videotaping it. the more video evidence you get, the stronger the case for "police as oppression machine" mounts. Despite what recent events might tell you, people can be swayed by overwhelming evidence. It's just taking more now than it ever has in history.

Edit: ah, holy shit, the president just invoked the insurrection act. He's bringing in us military to stomp out protests. The fucking dog has the shitting temerity to declare himself a "friend to all peaceful protestors" while using armed military police with tear gas, rubber bullets, and flashbangs to remove protestors for his speech.

In case anyone wasn't already incredibly aware (you have to be thick or concern trolling if you aren't), all this moaning about looting was absolutely a pretext to crack down hard on protests that hurt trump's ego.

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 06:20:28 pm by ggamer »
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