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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3535232 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37185 on: June 01, 2020, 09:41:33 pm »

Bush suspended Posse Comitatus.  Obama undid that.  But then also signed the 2012 NDAA that re-suspended Posse Comitatus but only when its terrorists (anybody the state doesn't like is a terrorist).  He publicly stated that he had no choice because of republican shenanigans always putting in those riders and the other stuff in the bill is so important that it wasn't worth shutting it all down just for the sake of ol' Posse Comitatus.  Then a coalition of activists and journalists led by Chris Hedges filed a suit against it, and won the first round in court.  And it was white house legal teams that appealed and won the next round in higher court.

So if Trump wants to employ the military against this he absolutely has the legal grounds to do so if he wants, and his move to label Antifa a terrorist organization indicates thats exactly how he intends to go about it.  Never forget who to thank for him having the ability to do this.

Out of curiosity, how does that jive with the wikipedia description? (Not that I consider wikipedia the final word at all, just trying to get clarification). The quotes from there, particularly the "Nothing in this section" text, seem to suggest it's more limited than that.

Spoiler: Wiki sez (click to show/hide)

The lawsuit would be a good point of reference on that.

The first part describing who is a "covered person" is incredibly vague.  And I think the crux of it is doubts as to whether the 2nd part carries as much weight in interpretation as the first.  Some really big names and multiple civil rights organizations condemned those sections, and I respect their opinions more than the representatives of the state that has continually engaged in slimy legal wordplay to justify things like putting environmental activists on terrorism watchlists that were intended for the types of people who fly planes into buildings, not people who chain themselves to trees.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37186 on: June 01, 2020, 09:53:36 pm »

Thanks. I agree the legal text is vague, though the case itself ended up 'just' being thrown out on standing. So looks like it hasn't had a chance (thanks to the case) to get a proper legal hearing.

I suppose it could mean we end up getting a proper standing situation and a full legal accounting. Under the Barr DOJ and current Supreme Court, which of course would be just peachy.
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37187 on: June 01, 2020, 10:57:05 pm »

Sure. Note: A: it was a trump tweet not any sort of statement I could direct you to or something, and B: he has absolutely no grounds to do that in the first place so twitter is about as binding as it gets anyway.

You've got to at least allege some sort of international connections to mark a group as terrorist; purely domestic groups (like the Neonazi Atomwaffen) have been prosecuted by the FBI as criminal enterprises. Also you have to have an organization to be a terrorist organization. Wouldn't stop them from charging individual members with terrorism but that still means that the labeling itself is purely rhetoric.

Thanks - I got my lines crossed between this and Trump's announcement to use military to break up protests.

misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37188 on: June 02, 2020, 12:48:23 am »

Actually, the Atomwaffen Nazis do have international ties, the German authorities were prosecuting their local branch recently. Not sure if it's enough to be an international terror organization, but it's spooky enough as is.
Apparently they are actually on the cusp of being designated a "Foreign Terrorist Organization" by the state department, hence recently claiming to have disbanded; apparently to reduce suspicion. But until this year they haven't been one so when the FBI has acted against them they've been a "criminal enterprise" for legal reasons. Which certainly isn't an incorrect way of describing a group planning violent overthrow of the federal government.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 12:54:58 am by misko27 »
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Rusty

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37189 on: June 02, 2020, 02:32:10 am »

Bush suspended Posse Comitatus.  Obama undid that.  But then also signed the 2012 NDAA that re-suspended Posse Comitatus but only when its terrorists (anybody the state doesn't like is a terrorist).  He publicly stated that he had no choice because of republican shenanigans always putting in those riders and the other stuff in the bill is so important that it wasn't worth shutting it all down just for the sake of ol' Posse Comitatus.  Then a coalition of activists and journalists led by Chris Hedges filed a suit against it, and won the first round in court.  And it was white house legal teams that appealed and won the next round in higher court.

So if Trump wants to employ the military against this he absolutely has the legal grounds to do so if he wants, and his move to label Antifa a terrorist organization indicates thats exactly how he intends to go about it.  Never forget who to thank for him having the ability to do this.

Out of curiosity, how does that jive with the wikipedia description? (Not that I consider wikipedia the final word at all, just trying to get clarification). The quotes from there, particularly the "Nothing in this section" text, seem to suggest it's more limited than that.

Spoiler: Wiki sez (click to show/hide)

The lawsuit would be a good point of reference on that.

The first part describing who is a "covered person" is incredibly vague.  And I think the crux of it is doubts as to whether the 2nd part carries as much weight in interpretation as the first.  Some really big names and multiple civil rights organizations condemned those sections, and I respect their opinions more than the representatives of the state that has continually engaged in slimy legal wordplay to justify things like putting environmental activists on terrorism watchlists that were intended for the types of people who fly planes into buildings, not people who chain themselves to trees.

You all are over thinking this.  While Trump definitely has a political reason to spout off about antifa, he doesn't need all the legal wrangling to get around posse comitatus.  Any circumstances covered by any act of Congress authorizing the use of military force are an exception to the Posse Comitatus Act.  The situation we are in right now is firmly within the president's authority under the Insurrection Act of 1807.  He can deploy troops today and be totally within his legal authority to do it.  No terrorism declarations necessary.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37190 on: June 02, 2020, 05:23:43 am »

Applying the Insurrection Act in this case is much more dubious, legally speaking, than it might seem. The protests are not in opposition to the Federal government, and the Department of Defense reports that there are 0 requests from state governments declaring them an insurrection against the state and asking the Feds to intervene. That's two of the three legal justifications blown out of the water. The third justification, that of resolving disorder that is preventing exercise of civil rights, would probably not stand up in court unless it was used against the police (who bear the primary responsibility for this getting out of hand, because they vastly overreacted to the well-justified protests), not for them.

Given that any orders to do anything would have to go through career officials who very much do not want to be the star guests at capital trials in a few years, any actual use of military force is highly unlikely, except possibly in an unarmed "physically separate them with sheer numbers" way.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37191 on: June 02, 2020, 07:46:54 am »

Some of you may have heard of Trump's Bible photo op. Cops removed priests from their own church for it.

https://religionnews.com/2020/06/02/ahead-of-trump-bible-photo-op-police-forcibly-expel-priest-from-st-johns-church-near-white-house/
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37192 on: June 02, 2020, 07:54:59 am »

Not only that, the actual Rector of the church wrote on her own Facebook that Trump's guys tear-gassed them:

Quote
"We were literally DRIVEN OFF of the St. John's, Lafayette Square patio with tear gas and concussion grenades and police in full riot gear," Ms Gerbasi wrote.

She said she couldn't believe it when she found out they had been driven away from the site so that Trump could get a photo.

"PEOPLE WERE HURT SO THAT HE COULD POSE IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH WITH A BIBLE!

"HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO STEP OVER THE MEDICAL SUPPLIES WE LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE WE WERE BEING TEAR GASSED!!!!"

Trump, the master of PR strikes again. Apparently the whole thing was because people said he was "hiding" so he had to stage a photo op outside to prove them wrong.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 07:56:32 am by Reelya »
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37193 on: June 02, 2020, 08:40:39 am »

Hundreds of Facebook employees are on strike, because Facebook didn't take any action when Trump posted "when the looting starts, the shooting starts".
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/technology/facebook-employee-protest-trump.html
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37194 on: June 02, 2020, 08:48:17 am »

Not only that, the actual Rector of the church wrote on her own Facebook that Trump's guys tear-gassed them:

Quote
"We were literally DRIVEN OFF of the St. John's, Lafayette Square patio with tear gas and concussion grenades and police in full riot gear," Ms Gerbasi wrote.

She said she couldn't believe it when she found out they had been driven away from the site so that Trump could get a photo.

"PEOPLE WERE HURT SO THAT HE COULD POSE IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH WITH A BIBLE!

"HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO STEP OVER THE MEDICAL SUPPLIES WE LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE WE WERE BEING TEAR GASSED!!!!"

Trump, the master of PR strikes again. Apparently the whole thing was because people said he was "hiding" so he had to stage a photo op outside to prove them wrong.
Some of you may have heard of Trump's Bible photo op. Cops removed priests from their own church for it.

https://religionnews.com/2020/06/02/ahead-of-trump-bible-photo-op-police-forcibly-expel-priest-from-st-johns-church-near-white-house/

I'm just repeatedly dumbfounded by it all
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37195 on: June 02, 2020, 10:17:38 am »

It's straight tinpot dictator behavior.
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TamerVirus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37196 on: June 02, 2020, 10:21:50 am »

Remember that our beacon of hope and saviour who will lead us out of these troubling times will be ...uh...*checks notes* Joe Biden
ah nuts...
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Il Palazzo

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37197 on: June 02, 2020, 10:27:19 am »

I was doing a lazy, half-asleep reading of the above, and it went something like: 'The bacon of hope and savoury times.' And then Biden appeared out of nowhere and startled me awake.
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TamerVirus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37198 on: June 02, 2020, 10:30:21 am »

Well he is stuffed full of pork most of the time
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37199 on: June 02, 2020, 10:46:23 am »

I wonder how may votes Bernie would get if he could somehow magically re-enter the race
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479
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