Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 2530 2531 [2532] 2533 2534 ... 3515

Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3596090 times)

Dunamisdeos

  • Bay Watcher
  • Duggin was the hero we needed.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37965 on: July 08, 2020, 07:23:17 pm »

Same reason they fire anyone for being sick, or a woman for being pregnant. Takes a hit in profit. Now it's legal because "religious exemption".

A religious organization needs to provide up-front to potential employees a legally binding document of what constitutes firing on a religious basis or it needs to GTFO. Frankly, any organization that purports to be non-profit should have no problem with this. It gives them a surefire way to legally curate the leadership in their own organization, which is supposedly what they are after.

I'm immediately suspicious of any that don't do that from this point forward.
Logged
FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37966 on: July 08, 2020, 07:24:45 pm »

Wait, come again, what even are the (religious) arguments for disciminating against breast cancer patients? I mean, it’s a well known fact that ”love thy neighbor” isn’t the best followed tenet, but this specific case is new to me (a European).
I actually honestly don't know what the details of that particular case were. Ok I read a few articles and it's kind of nuanced but there is definitely a subjective barn door big enough to drive a truck through.  Apparently the ministerial exemption applies to anything that is "teaching religion" but there are fears that it will be applied to someone just teaching math. The fuzzy line comes in from what I said earlier - is "the way a teacher lives their life" part of their teaching even if it's not related to the subject matter in a class, if the students observe that way of life? I don't know how you could make a rule about that personally. I say: default to compassion, not punishment.


I can't change jobs because I can't get health insurance as good as I can here. My wife works full time, but is technically a part time employee (nurse) so she has no health options.

Mind you I don't really want to change jobs right now, but I also can't. I'm just lucky enough to have a stable job that I don't hate.

This was another hilarious-if-it-wasn't-so-sad miss with the ACA.  We can't have real health care reform in the US until we break the dependence of health care on employment.  An easy first start would be to make health care benefits taxable; this would eliminate all the crap associated with "full time employment" benefits and such.  The next two pieces would be to make health insurance portable across state lines and to make it so that health care premiums can't be set according to cohorts like "employees of company X".
Logged

Eschar

  • Bay Watcher
  • hello
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37967 on: July 08, 2020, 07:25:05 pm »

Quote from: Max™
Don't try to condescend when you're coming off like a nihilistic teenager, it's ridiculous.
Everything you've put forward is to say vote Dem because I'm angry at the Repubs. The DNC will save us all forever with ridiculous fantasy scenarios that I don't plan on backing up with evidence

AFAICT, Max said 'vote Dem because they're doing something not identical to Trump.' He didn't seem to think they'd be extremely salvific either.

Oh what the hell, the threads are probably imploding, antistrawmanning is too little too late by now.
Logged

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37968 on: July 08, 2020, 07:36:29 pm »

A religious organization needs to provide up-front to potential employees a legally binding document of what constitutes firing on a religious basis or it needs to GTFO. Frankly, any organization that purports to be non-profit should have no problem with this. It gives them a surefire way to legally curate the leadership in their own organization, which is supposedly what they are after.

I'm immediately suspicious of any that don't do that from this point forward.
Ultimately, such a document would be unenforceable. The ruling says that the ministerial exemption, which comes from the government itself, maybe applied to any employee of a religiously-oriented organization. The organization does not have the decision to restrict this, it's just the law. It would be easy to argue such if they violated their list of things they claim to enforce, since any boilerplate language will say that the organization has the right to change its policies at will, without warning, and apply them retroactively.

You could probably enforce something like this in an employment contract stating "we'll fire you for being gay, but not for being pregnant" or such, but that's not even touching discrimination law, you'd just be suing them for breach of contract. But of course no such thing will happen, as at-will employment is the law in all 50 states and true employment contracts extremely rare. There is certainly no union power in such organizations to create such an arrangement.

Although alarmingly, I am now reading that state courts have also interpreted the ministerial exemption as barring sexual harassment claims, wage-and-hour claims, and breach of contract claims. I can't fucking wait for Thomas to get to write the national version of that one.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37969 on: July 08, 2020, 07:49:58 pm »

You guys should start your own church and show 'em how it's done!

I'm only half joking.
Logged

dragdeler

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37970 on: July 08, 2020, 07:50:24 pm »

--
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:29:24 pm by dragdeler »
Logged
let

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37971 on: July 08, 2020, 07:52:07 pm »

You guys should start your own church and show 'em how it's done!

I'm only half joking.
Unfortunately, I think the only thing the Satanic Temple strategy would produce at this stage is a ruling affirming that fondling for Jesus is the law of America.

something something vague insinuation about the end of Christianity
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Egan_BW

  • Bay Watcher
  • what about full of shit? is that a meme too?
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37972 on: July 08, 2020, 07:55:39 pm »

Start our own church, with blackjack and hookers.
Logged
Insatiable consumption. Ceaseless motion. Unstoppable destruction.

Naturegirl1999

  • Bay Watcher
  • Thank you TamerVirus for the avatar switcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37973 on: July 08, 2020, 07:56:58 pm »

Start our own church, with blackjack and hookers.
thats called (casino/bar)
Logged

dragdeler

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37974 on: July 08, 2020, 07:59:46 pm »

-
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:29:28 pm by dragdeler »
Logged
let

WealthyRadish

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37975 on: July 08, 2020, 08:19:58 pm »

You guys should start your own church and show 'em how it's done!

I'm only half joking.

I think they beat you to it.
Logged

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37976 on: July 09, 2020, 12:09:47 am »

Nevermind, I don't care.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 03:00:50 am by Max™ »
Logged

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37977 on: July 09, 2020, 12:47:08 am »

Max literally said "those guys over there are evil fuckers, we can worry about picking apart everyone else after they're gone" because right now picking apart those nominally on our side just lets evil fuckers win, I'm sick of doing that, anybody else sick of doing that?

Our disagreement is rooted in the difference in belief regarding whether Democrats would deal substantive blows to Republicans if given the power.  I don't share your belief that they would.  I hated Bush and his administration more than I hate Trump, and Obama's presidency was essentially an extension of the Bush era -- and in most aspects that was absolutely not because of Republican fuckery.  Bush shoved the country into the pit of fascism, and then Obama paved over the hole.  Call me a petulant child all you want, but it's completely absurd to me to suggest that our way out of the hole is to trust the guy who was Obama's 2nd and is also by all metrics and indications even worse.  Believe that it's just temper tantrums all you want, but you genuinely just do a terrible job of convincing me.  You use language like "on our side", but they're not on our side.
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Max™

  • Bay Watcher
  • [CULL:SQUARE]
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37978 on: July 09, 2020, 01:02:09 am »

Nevermind, I don't care.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 03:01:12 am by Max™ »
Logged

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #37979 on: July 09, 2020, 01:30:42 am »

That 7-2 determination has me remarkably weirded out. Why does religion usurp flat, ubiquitous workers' rights, and to which bodies does this extend beyond religious schools? What's it take to get a business registered as a 'religious-oriented' business? Could we see a Religion of Walmart, where the bottom workers must adhere to strict ascetism? The Way of Kohls, where not hawking enough store credit cards brands you a heretic and strips you of your uniform?
There are no worker's rights in the Constitution (and ain't that something?), but there are religious rights in it. In the original case establishing it, SCOTUS ruled that religions must inherently have the right to select their own ministers. But minister is a vague term, for is a teacher not ministering? Is not anyone who does a job that isn't sitting in a box alone all day, hammering down nails? And thus with this ruling they expand their original vaguery to consume everything. Worse still, even a law passed by Congress would hardly strip it out since at least 7 of the 9 Justices believe this ministerial bullshit is implied by the Constitution. So it's an amendment or court packing to solve this. I still say private schooling should be illegal wholesale.

As for Walmartism, there is nothing stopping it. Truthfully, there was nothing stopping it before today either, save incredulousness. Because US law promises not to regulate religions, it also does not define what a religion is. That's how John Oliver was able to set up Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption and get recognized by the actual fucking IRS as a religion in spite of it being openly a joke.

Legally speaking, there is nothing stopping Walmart from reorganizing themselves as the practice of the Walmartist faith, and thus require all Walmart employees to be devout Walmartists, believers in the sacred nature of Low Low Prices and loyal to God's prophets in the Walton family. One wonders if L. Ron Hubbard didn't see this angle eighty years before the rest of us did...

Everybody still think state atheism is a bad idea?

Quote
I guess, in level terms- what's the short and long term ramifications of this decision?

- Employees of religious organizations now have effectively no legal protections, since discrimination law is one of the very few employment laws that is regularly enforced. Want to put "Irish need not apply" in an ad for a janitor at your brainwashing academy? Perfectly legal! Hell, you can technically get real crazy with it, require virginity checks or daily polygraphs or whatever you like.

- That in turn is so bad that some of these religious organizations may end up specifically claiming some positions are non-ministerial, if this drives away job applicants.

- As I said in my previous post, lower courts have ruled that ministerial exemption blocks even sexual harassment and wage lawsuits, so expect to see that finding its way to SCOTUS either this fall or next.

- This will surely generate horror stories to make the general reputation of Christianity in the US even worse, so at least we've got that going for us.

Quote
Have we heard through the grapevine if they're planning to upend anything else that we take for granted in a modern civilization?
The ruling on Trump's tax returns hits tomorrow - I haven't reviewed the legal challenge so I have no idea how it will go. That's the end of session for SCOTUS rulings this year, but of course they could always have Thomas and Alito resign a week later and replace them with a pair of 20-year old neo-Nazis- sorry, "classical liberals".

Actually, there's no legal requirement that Supreme Court Justices be adults, or citizens, or even alive for that matter. No restrictions are listed in the Constitution save that Congress can impeach them.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 01:33:47 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
Pages: 1 ... 2530 2531 [2532] 2533 2534 ... 3515