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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1587844 times)

dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38040 on: July 11, 2020, 11:36:23 am »

Have you all considered that talk of doom is largely self-fulfilling? If you keep telling yourself (and others) that there is no hope, then people stop even trying - at best they just become isolated, at worst they become "every person for themselves" so start stealing, being violent, etc.

Give people hope, something to strive for, something to make them think trying is worth it.  If you tell people trying isn't worth it - they won't even try.  In that case, then of course the people who are actually trying to accomplish something will be able to do it - because they will be the only ones trying.



That point about the lottery could have been made by myself on another day  ;D.

I'll say though: there is definitly an immense power in how susceptible we are to superstitious behaviour, (mismatching cause and effect, and repeating behaviour patterns because the effect doesn't stop), and that sword does cut both ways. It is as likely to create a great thing out of silly reasons, as it is likely to ruin a great thing out of silly reasoning. Except what boggles my mind is that we allways get these peptalks when it comes to the euphemistic worldview, while optimistic idealism is regularly ruined by the very same self-fullfilling prophecies.

You know, my parents, most days they're mediocre at best, and definitly carry a lot of staple boomer traits. But I've also had the priviledge to meet what I deem an unusually generous amount of truely inspiring rolemodels, like teachers that would notice how distant and inattentive I was getting yet never fell below a certain treshold, because I truely did my best to avoid partaking at school, and sometimes they'd invite me to have a great talk over the recess... People like that who never ever needed the slightest sliver of authority you know why? Because they inspired respect. Another example, the guy who founded the anti-autoritarian education experiment I later went to (got my highschool diploma there) litterally solved the unsolvable: you know what the biggest issue is in anarchist communities? It's not violence nor vandalism, it's theft. One day a laptop got stolen and the effect of that would have been devastating to the school as whole, because the project was deeply political and allways under the observation of - if not hostile - at least very ungenerous entities... Well the guy somehow figured out where the laptop went (small town) went to knock at their door, sat on a kitchen chair and said: "yo guys, I'm not leaving without the laptop" and then just casually smoked his cigarettes until some knees got weak and they gave him the laptop. The guys who lived in the house told me how those that were upstairs in their tiny two and a half room house, remained hidden there, petrified and silent  ;D.


ANYwaaaayyyy... Pick whatever "adult" I've talked to, those that aren't deluded and/or dishonest... If you cut away all the layers of euphemism that serve to premptively end that deeply uncomfortable talk about purpose, they will all admit to you that there is nothing but this cynical understanding of what constitutes survival nowadays that keeps the workerdrones busy. And that is really no good reason to uphold that model, and simply be... IDK... better.


And that is the trauma the past generation(s) has never been willing to admit or process, their absolute and utter lack of purpose, and the shitty decisions they made instead, despite probably not actually wanting to. Maybe because they feel that that diminishes their life's work, that's my best bet at least.
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Quarque

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38041 on: July 11, 2020, 03:42:19 pm »

It's possible to get some Democrats to care about progressiveness, but the majority seem to fight against it as hard/harder as Republicans.
This is just not true, and this is exactly the kind of gloomy exaggeration that plays right into the hands of Trump. Democrats fight harder against progression than the monstrosity that now calls itself the Republican party? Really?
The Republicans are currently painting journalists as the Enemy of the people, locking up refugees in cages, telling us that an old man beaten down by the police is probably part of a conspiracy, releasing criminals as a personal favor, tearing up nuclear agreements, actively tearing up institutions like the EPA, tearing up the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform.. the list goes on.

Yeah, Biden isn't the dream candidate. If you would rather vote for a more progressive third party, by all means go ahead. But Biden isn't nearly as utterly corrupt and downright evil as Trump, and it is not even close. Sowing apathy and despair with a false narrative of them being equivalent is exactly the tool Trump uses with most effect.

You think the Democrats aren't good enough? Fine, go ahead and at least come up with a better alternative. Make people rally behind another party, instead of making them feel that voting isn't worth it.

Or vote for Biden. He wouldn't set everything right, but having him as a president would sure as hell be a better starting point when fighting for a better world than sulking righteously in your room and having another Trump term.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38042 on: July 11, 2020, 03:48:50 pm »

This isn't a Biden problem. The right does not have a Trump problem, they're just bad people who love a guy like Trump. The center does not have a Biden problem, they're just...zombies? They won't defend, touch, or admit the existence of the real Joe Biden. That's true for some of the right, but it seems to be true of all of the center. In my opinion it's the ultimate version of "don't scare the racist" politics that the DNC likes so much, but now it's clear that this attitude isn't a strategy so much as a reflection of 40% of the American population.

The center is always "starting". Taking a "first step", as they have been in every bullshit campaign the past 40 years. But it's 11:59 now, and claiming to take another first step then is almost more pathetic than just giving up.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Quarque

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38043 on: July 11, 2020, 04:05:30 pm »

The center is always "starting". Taking a "first step", as they have been in every bullshit campaign the past 40 years. But it's 11:59 now, and claiming to take another first step then is almost more pathetic than just giving up.
Giving up is less pathetic?

This isn't the first time in history that man faced evil rulers. And the fight has never been easy. In fact, it has often been harder than today.

Imagine the Russians would have given up in WOII. The odds did seem overwhelming. But no, 10 million Russians sacrificed their lives to rid the world of Hitler and it worked.

Imagine the French would have given up instead of revolting. We might still be ruled by kings today, without voting rights to begin with.
Imagine that people would have given up about slavery. Abolishment never happening.
Imagine that people would have given up about female voting rights.

Giving up before the fight never worked.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38044 on: July 11, 2020, 04:35:29 pm »

Modern America is none of those things, and it is churlish and disgusting to even compare them to now.

Come on, don't you see the joke? America eats and eats until it despoils the whole Earth, and then in the dust the racist suburban Karens of America say "ok fine, I'll start recycling my cans, jeez don't be so serious!". That is what we are, not the people fighting the fucking Nazis.

This is a culture of elders who can neither govern nor surrender governance paired with a culture of youths who have been completely solidified not to care or fight back. That is the perspective from which the "grand conflict" of Biden vs. Trump actually makes some sense and is predictable. Yes, I do say that it is pathetic to stake hope on one of those parties.

People who believe in grand global conspiracies and problem politicians are optimists. You can destroy a grand global conspiracy, expose its crimes or what have you. You could impeach Trump, well maybe not that given what actually happened, but the principle applies. But when the real problem is in the thoughts of the silent majority? Now there's an understanding that is pessimistic enough to potentially overcome optimism bias.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38045 on: July 11, 2020, 08:21:34 pm »

Springboarding from that, as I've said many times before, at least a figure like Trump does something to break the deafening silence and lethargy.

I don't believe the narrative that Democrats in power, even if they're terrible, would at least provide a better position from which to fight for something more.

I'm 37.  I've seen multiple administrations come and go.  The thing that stands out strongest to me is that conservatives are always at war.  They're always energized.  Always feel like the underdog fighting like hell in a panicked frenzy for their god's will and the soul of the country.  Even when their agenda is dominating politics.

He wouldn't set everything right, but having him as a president would sure as hell be a better starting point when fighting for a better world than sulking righteously in your room and having another Trump term.

But on the other side, this has been tested over and over and over again.  It's never true.  90% of the population who isn't hardcore conservative checks out of politics almost completely if the aesthetics of the dominant party are soothing enough to their sensibilities.  When the frontman of government isn't obviously despicable or stupid, they take whatever's said at face value, and hand-wave anyone who does bother to fact-check as a conspiracy theorist.

Based on my experiences with people through the Obama-era, I 100% expect that if a perfect universal healthcare bill landed on Biden's desk and he vetoed it, that people would just believe by default that somehow Republicans were responsible.  And if I provided them links with video footage of him doing the paperwork to veto at his desk, with a dozen health insurance execs watching over his shoulder while stuffing money in his pockets, they simply wouldn't look.

Can you give me any reason to believe this time would be different?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 08:28:54 pm by SalmonGod »
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Karnewarrior

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38046 on: July 12, 2020, 02:01:19 am »

No it's the opposite -- it's "if you don't stop buying lottery tickets you'll never save any money"
The difference being that here, stopping buying the lottery tickets doesn't stop us from spending the money on them, it just prevents us from reaping the collective rewards.

The whole edgy "everything's awful and nothing will ever get done" is cool and all, but it's predicated on 100% bullshit. Nothing's awful and everything will get done eventually - that's how literally the rest of human history worked, it's how it's going to work out here. You can choose to be part of building that future and possibly have a say in it, or sit and mope about the futility of it all and be forgotten in the gutter.

I'm growing rather irritated with the doom and gloom in this thread. It's entirely unwarranted. I'm not that depressed and my fucking Grandfather just died. No candidate is perfect - fucking Lincoln didn't even want to free the Slaves, it just wound up being politically expedient. Stop focusing on the negatives and discarding all the positives as inconsequential and maybe the world won't seem like such a depressing place, eh?
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38047 on: July 12, 2020, 05:26:00 am »

En avant mes petits, tout est pour le mieux dans le meilleur des mondes.


The lottery metaphore IS NOT about personal odds, everybody can win the lottery, just not all at once. Well everybody can be rich in capitalism, just not all at once.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 05:39:08 am by dragdeler »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38048 on: July 12, 2020, 05:48:07 am »

There's an essay by Orwell titled England Your England that I think you may find interesting.

Here's an amusing excerpt, apropos of nothing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(this was written in 1941)
It's amusing how little has changed in the realm of global finance; reach a certain level of money, and you entrench yourself as a comfortable leisure class, who makes money because they have money

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38049 on: July 12, 2020, 09:31:09 am »

No it's the opposite -- it's "if you don't stop buying lottery tickets you'll never save any money"
The difference being that here, stopping buying the lottery tickets doesn't stop us from spending the money on them, it just prevents us from reaping the collective rewards.

The whole edgy "everything's awful and nothing will ever get done" is cool and all, but it's predicated on 100% bullshit. Nothing's awful and everything will get done eventually - that's how literally the rest of human history worked, it's how it's going to work out here. You can choose to be part of building that future and possibly have a say in it, or sit and mope about the futility of it all and be forgotten in the gutter.

I'm growing rather irritated with the doom and gloom in this thread. It's entirely unwarranted. I'm not that depressed and my fucking Grandfather just died. No candidate is perfect - fucking Lincoln didn't even want to free the Slaves, it just wound up being politically expedient. Stop focusing on the negatives and discarding all the positives as inconsequential and maybe the world won't seem like such a depressing place, eh?

People are less likely to get angry and try to take away what you've gained if you're forgotten in the gutter. The gutter isn't that bad of a place.

Here's the other part of the lottery metaphor, people who end up winning the lottery are quite likely to end up worse off in the end. Being very publicly successful like that generally brings a lot of undesirable attention. People often don't know how to handle that success. End up wasting it. End up right back where they started. Often it brings out the worst in the people around them, people they thought they could trust. Often that means it gets taken from them, occasionally it means they don't survive the whole experience.

My point isn't "everything is awful and nothing will ever get done" though. My point is things suck and nothing is going to change quickly. And while you wait for the coming change, you're going to have to deal with a lot of shitty choices. Sometimes there will be no good choice. But a choice still has to be made, and the consequences have to be dealt with. So you deal with them, move on, and hope the next choice is less shitty.
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38050 on: July 14, 2020, 08:43:28 am »

Does anyone have a good view on where the idea that we shouldn't oppose or try to stop people from doing terrible things, only compromise with them started? It's been getting a real foothold, and is especially damaging in this last decade.
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38051 on: July 14, 2020, 08:59:41 am »

I guess isolationist policies in the last 20 years. Interested to see a more educated answer, though.

dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38052 on: July 14, 2020, 09:07:47 am »

Back in the day the biggest murderers were granted honors... I'd assume it allways has been an aspect to "polite society", he might be a homicidal psychopath but he's your cousin after all, and better them than us and that kind of shit...
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askovdk

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38053 on: July 14, 2020, 09:17:08 am »

Does anyone have a good view on where the idea that we shouldn't oppose or try to stop people from doing terrible things, only compromise with them started? It's been getting a real foothold, and is especially damaging in this last decade.

In short with the idea of constitutions and civil rights.  :-\
In a barbaric society everyone can do, oppose, and stop what ever they currently have the power to do, oppose, and stop.
But (starting with the Greeks?) we now have a basic social agreement, that within certain borders we don’t stop the activities of each other, and those borders are put down with the core laws of the land.
So there may be people thinking that eating meat is a terrible thing, but as long as it’s not against the LAW, then they shouldn’t stop other people’s pursuit of happiness in eating a steak.

So yes, while I support many grassroots push for change, then "having many people agreeing with me" doesn’t give anybody the right to stop others.
Unless an outright (by definition illegal) revolution is called to change the LAW, then we all have to compromise and just influence each other.
In theory democracy should make it easier to change the LAW to match the current will of the people, but as this thread suggests, then it feels like an uphill battle.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38054 on: July 14, 2020, 09:22:26 am »

 
Does anyone have a good view on where the idea that we shouldn't oppose or try to stop people from doing terrible things, only compromise with them started? It's been getting a real foothold, and is especially damaging in this last decade.

You live in this thing called a democracy where two groups of differing politic opinion are constantly exchanging authority and governance. If you want your politics to last longer than the next power shift then you have to either reach a compromise that both parties can agree to or start working to subvert the other party's chances of amassing election points.
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