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[Maximum Spin]

Sorry sweaty, but borders aren't real. Kappa, and such.

Oh, borders are as real as guns are.

Taxes aren't real either.

This, I agree with. The state isn't real either.

[wierd]

The state exists through the voluntary consent of the citizenry, so says the constitution.

It is real, because the citizens agree that it is.  Same as any other legal apparatus.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

This isn't the goddamn Platonic Academy, we're talking about a specific real thing. Must I belabor in every incarnation of this question what we already had agreed to discuss?

If anything it is you who has ripped the goalpost out of the ground and shoved it through my poor heart, and then refused to treat me because you aren't a cardiologist. And if you are a cardiologist, woo boy, I will make waves in ghost court.

You said: "The right to heathcare makes doctors slaves because they can't refuse." You sure acted like this was about personal discretion, and not resources and skills. This would make sense, as the alternative is completely bizarre.

And so, seeing the obvious contradiction that ER doctors put to that position, which you also acknowledged as a "special condition", I have asked you a simple question: Is the inability to make personal discretion refusals, such as that of not treating lawyers, in the ER slavery?

That sure seemed to be the implication of the initial investment, when it was a hypothetical. But things have gotten wild for all of us since venturing into the real world applications of doctoral slavery, I suppose.

Oh, borders are as real as guns are.

Guns have never successfully enforced borders, so that would imply that borders are more real than guns, and borders are definitely fake. But guns are real, I'm pretty sure.

Oh, I sense a category problem here all right.

This, I agree with. The state isn't real either.

The state is literally the most real thing that exists. You can feel it whenever you close your eyes and behold the horror of our present history.

[Max™]

This is why it bothers me people call us both Max, I'm Max, he's Spin. I'm the one that only wants to murder those who predate on the weak, he's the one who apparently is fine with such things as long as it's off his pro-puh-tay?

I was amused by the "I'm not a conservative, I voted for Obama" version of "I've got a black friend" though.

[wierd]

No, I did not "Agree" to discuss it.

You forced it.  Specifically, here:

Since you didn't answer my question, and instead deflected into definitions and claims of misrepresentation like you always do, this discussion is concluded.

You may feel free to skip claiming misrepresentation whenever I critique your position in future discussions. I know you are thinking it, so there is no need to elaborate.

Enjoy the eternity of slavery, I guess. Not fake slavery as a doctor or anything, I'm talking about real slavery once the ecocide kicks off and society collapses.

I was explaining why I did not answer your question.  Now you are being butthurt.  As your own rhetoric points out, I did not want to discuss this angle of inquiry.  I was elaborating why, and then kicked the foundation out from under the petard behind it for good measure.

The rules of argument exist because they work.  They have withstood challenge for over 2000 years. Are you capable of continuing this discussion in good faith?

The statement you have just made--

"If anything it is you who has ripped the goalpost out of the ground and shoved it through my poor heart, and then refused to treat me because you aren't a cardiologist. And if you are a cardiologist, woo boy, I will make waves in ghost court."

Is not an example of moving the goal post;  The goalpost was, and still is, "ER doctors cannot refuse."

Again, I have given specific examples, and cited a legal primer on the issue at law, which clearly point to the falseness of this premise. 

I DO NOT WANT TO DISCUSS IT FURTHER.  YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG, AND UPSET ABOUT IT.

[Maximum Spin]

Guns have never successfully enforced borders, so that would imply that borders are more real than guns, and borders are definitely fake. But guns are real, I'm pretty sure.

Israel's border wall looks pretty sturdy.

This is why it bothers me people call us both Max, I'm Max, he's Spin. I'm the one that only wants to murder those who predate on the weak, he's the one who apparently is fine with such things as long as it's off his pro-puh-tay?

I'm fine with predating on the weak on my property too, that's what the cats are for

I was amused by the "I'm not a conservative, I voted for Obama" version of "I've got a black friend" though.

That's a pretty dumb argument. I'm not saying I'm not a conservative because I voted for Obama, I'm saying the converse of that. I do regret voting for Obama, if that helps.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Guns have never successfully enforced borders, so that would imply that borders are more real than guns, and borders are definitely fake. But guns are real, I'm pretty sure.

Israel's border wall looks pretty sturdy.

The immense sturdiness of letting terror at people both inside and outside your borders, which are fake like all other borders, decide everything that you do forever.

[Il Palazzo]

I DO NOT WANT TO DISCUSS IT FURTHER.  YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG, AND UPSET ABOUT IT.

Lol. Dude. It sure looks like it's you.

[Max™]

I'm not even conservative in any meaningful sense, I voted for Obama, yadda yadda yadda.

You endorse violent defense of property and have a bizarrely strong infection of capitalist brain bugs, that makes you a conservative last I checked, Spin.

[wierd]

I would point out, that the kind of rhetoric you just provided, MSH, demands that any and all gods be treated as real, because real people have died, in real wars and altercations, over them.


The truth is that people believe they exist, and that people have died due to those beliefs.  Neither is qualitative proof of the actual existence of such an entity.


Such entities, like governments, (or borders), exist only in as much as people believe they exist, and act to enforce a condition that demands that agreement through some form of compulsion. (Violent, or otherwise.)

Remove the ancient greeks and their faith-- does Zeus exist?  What about olympus?


A state is not a real thing, any more than Little Red Riding Hood, or the Tooth Fairy are.  People write about them, and perform actions to invoke them, but they are not actual things outside of mass acceptance.  Like Zeus.


"Dude, lol, it sure looks like it's you."

No, I dislike the coy games people play to try and pretend that their position is correct, without actually challenging their preconceptions to consider a position they find objectionable in a fair shake.  Your tone has been nothing but dismissive and belittling from the start; Mine was quite clinical, which is ultimately why you responded in the manner you did, (quips about aristotilian debate class, et al.).  This is another fine example of your acting in poor faith.

Yes, I agree that I get angered when people make blatantly bad arguments, then refuse to see how they are blatantly bad.

You however, cannot even bring yourself to admit that you were hot and bothered by the subject matter itself. QED, just now.

[Maximum Spin]

I'm not even conservative in any meaningful sense, I voted for Obama, yadda yadda yadda.

You endorse violent defense of property and have a bizarrely strong infection of capitalist brain bugs, that makes you a conservative last I checked, Spin.

By that standard, almost everyone in America is conservative. Of course I recognise you can believe that, as "conservative" is relative.

Anyway, this thing about borders is always hilarious to me. See, I want people who have different values to be able to have different modes of government. People who want different things should have their own countries and not have to try to force each other to work together. But the far-left mindset considers the possibility anyone getting away from your power anathematic. We must force everyone to have the same values whether they like it or not!

[wierd]

I'm not even conservative in any meaningful sense, I voted for Obama, yadda yadda yadda.

You endorse violent defense of property and have a bizarrely strong infection of capitalist brain bugs, that makes you a conservative last I checked, Spin.

By that standard, almost everyone in America is conservative. Of course I recognise you can believe that, as "conservative" is relative.

Anyway, this thing about borders is always hilarious to me. See, I want people who have different values to be able to have different modes of government. People who want different things should have their own countries and not have to try to force each other to work together. But the far-left mindset considers the possibility anyone getting away from your power anathematic. We must force everyone to have the same values whether they like it or not!

This does have some validity.  See also, "We must bring WESTERN VALUES to the middle east! All those bhurkas must be burned! (et al)."

No, the middle east is a region that contains many disparate groups and group identities, many of which have mass-agreement concerning religious adherence, and dress.  They are able to make their own choices, even if you disagree with them. That's what sovereignty *is.*

There is no such thing as a demonstrably true moral code.  It is a mass-acceptance phenomena at every level.  Name a thing-- Some cultures embraced, others eschewed.  ANY THING humans do, this is true for.  (Even things we in the west consider murder, rape, torture, infanticide, and a number of other things that, to us, are reprehensible.) 

The only truths are "People believe it is so." and "People use compulsory methods to enforce their views on others."  Those things are demonstrably true. Everything else is just navel gazing and sophist masturbation.

 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

"Dude, lol, it sure looks like it's you."

No, I dislike the coy games people play to try and pretend that their position is correct, without actually challenging their preconceptions to consider a position they find objectionable in a fair shake.  Your tone has been nothing but dismissive and belittling from the start; Mine was quite clinical, which is ultimately why you responded in the manner you did, (quips about aristotilian debate class, et al.).  This is another fine example of your acting in poor faith.

Yes, I agree that I get angered when people make blatantly bad arguments, then refuse to see how they are blatantly bad.

You however, cannot even bring yourself to admit that you were hot and bothered by the subject matter itself. QED, just now.

Lol. Dude. It sure looks like it's you.

Are...you actually accusing me of being Il Palazzo's alt? You said you didn't want to discuss it anymore, but I do need this in particular cleared up.

I would point out, that the kind of rhetoric you just provided, MSH, demands that any and all gods be treated as real, because real people have died, in real wars and altercations, over them.


The truth is that people believe they exist, and that people have died due to those beliefs.  Neither is qualitative proof of the actual existence of such an entity.


Such entities, like governments, (or borders), exist only in as much as people believe they exist, and act to enforce a condition that demands that agreement through some form of compulsion. (Violent, or otherwise.)

Remove the ancient greeks and their faith-- does Zeus exist?  What about olympus?

By the meaning of reality I'm using here, which is not the vernacular one, gods are as real as the state. They're real in the sense of the material power controlled by the collective neurological wiring which sustains them. I separate this from borders and taxes because very few people devote themselves to borders and taxes and they're always seen as freaks if they do, where as the spirit-reader devotion to the state and gods are both sometimes treated as acceptable even if they are in fact no less freakish.

The state-devotion however is much more powerful than any god-devotion, and must be so due to our place in history, where the capitalist state reigns far more supreme than the inventors of the gods could ever imagine being. The echos of the state and its ritualistic demands reach out to capture all, even nonbelievers like myself. The state is not real in the way gravity is real, but the invisible eyes of its power crawl up my spine every time I meet a crosswalk. I dare not blaspheme, for the crusaders of the state are tenfold so cruel as the crusaders of the church, when they feel they must prove themselves...

[wierd]

"Dude, lol, it sure looks like it's you."

No, I dislike the coy games people play to try and pretend that their position is correct, without actually challenging their preconceptions to consider a position they find objectionable in a fair shake.  Your tone has been nothing but dismissive and belittling from the start; Mine was quite clinical, which is ultimately why you responded in the manner you did, (quips about aristotilian debate class, et al.).  This is another fine example of your acting in poor faith.

Yes, I agree that I get angered when people make blatantly bad arguments, then refuse to see how they are blatantly bad.

You however, cannot even bring yourself to admit that you were hot and bothered by the subject matter itself. QED, just now.

Lol. Dude. It sure looks like it's you.

Are...you actually accusing me of being Il Palazzo's alt? You said you didn't want to discuss it anymore, but I do need this in particular cleared up.

Ahh-- Yes-- this is quite correct. Mia Culpa! My apologies!

I would point out, that the kind of rhetoric you just provided, MSH, demands that any and all gods be treated as real, because real people have died, in real wars and altercations, over them.


The truth is that people believe they exist, and that people have died due to those beliefs.  Neither is qualitative proof of the actual existence of such an entity.


Such entities, like governments, (or borders), exist only in as much as people believe they exist, and act to enforce a condition that demands that agreement through some form of compulsion. (Violent, or otherwise.)

Remove the ancient greeks and their faith-- does Zeus exist?  What about olympus?

By the meaning of reality I'm using here, which is not the vernacular one, gods are as real as the state. They're real in the sense of the material power controlled by the collective neurological wiring which sustains them. I separate this from borders and taxes because very few people devote themselves to borders and taxes and they're always seen as freaks if they do, where as the spirit-reader devotion to the state and gods are both sometimes treated as acceptable even if they are in fact no less freakish.

The state-devotion however is much more powerful than any god-devotion, and must be so due to our place in history, where the capitalist state reigns far more supreme than the inventors of the gods could ever imagine being. The echos of the state and its ritualistic demands reach out to capture all, even nonbelievers like myself. The state is not real in the way gravity is real, but the invisible eyes of its power crawl up my spine every time I meet a crosswalk. I dare not blaspheme, for the crusaders of the state are tenfold so cruel as the crusaders of the church, when they feel they must prove themselves...

This I can agree with;  However, any government that exerts its power through forceful compulsion (In the greater sense), and not through voluntary adherence, is by definition an oppressive regime. (Since it preforms such oppression in order to sustain itself)  This statement you have made indicates that you believe the USA's government is an oppressive regime.

Is that a correct assessment?

[Maximum Spin]

The state-devotion however is much more powerful than any god-devotion, and must be so due to our place in history, where the capitalist state reigns far more supreme than the inventors of the gods could ever imagine being. The echos of the state and its ritualistic demands reach out to capture all, even nonbelievers like myself. The state is not real in the way gravity is real, but the invisible eyes of its power crawl up my spine every time I meet a crosswalk. I dare not blaspheme, for the crusaders of the state are tenfold so cruel as the crusaders of the church, when they feel they must prove themselves...

Man, I'm glad I don't live in your dystopia.

I haven't seen or spoken to a police officer in more than ten years. I've seen police cars out on the road, of course, but never interacted with them. I also jaywalk constantly because I'm a country boy and don't really understand this "crosswalk" thing still. I mean that literally, I don't do it on purpose, I just forget there's supposed to be a process.

Broadly speaking, interaction with government bureaucracy where I live is essentially minimal. I know maaaaaany people who I know for a fact routinely violate building codes, to take one example. The biggest exception I can think of is healthcare, but... people around here are the kind of people for whom interaction with the healthcare industry is also minimal. What I'm saying is that the concept of people like you and people like me having different countries is already true, de facto, just not de jure. Unfortunately, your city-states are also dystopian hellholes for some reason which can't possibly be related to the ideology that has been in actual power in those same city-states for the last century.