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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1987535 times)

dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42495 on: December 02, 2020, 08:58:18 am »

If only that were striclty true we'd be rid of reactionnaries once the last milo crubinpiro vulgaris dies out.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42496 on: December 02, 2020, 10:05:53 am »

I'm not defending them or anything but the right wing seems somewhat quieter about their candidate losing than I remember the left in 2016 (God I can't believe that was less than a decade ago). My conservative friends didn't go ballistic or anything. A vaguely annoyed rant at most that was forgotten about a few days later.

If anything that's a good mentality to have.
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А если зло победит
Если меня ночью упекут
Не от петли же я умру
А умру я от любви
Не от петли же я умру
А умру я от любви

Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42497 on: December 02, 2020, 10:11:10 am »

If they seem quieter there are two reasons which don't involve them actually being quieter at all.

1. They don't accept the idea that he lost, and would thus be silent on that front.
2. They don't roll around in the same social/media bubbles as you do.

Republicans in Georgia are panic-mode right now because dumbfuck fascist supporters are turning on the candidates there, and man, if I thought the left was good at eating their own... you add a lot more crazy populism into the mix and it's... it's a mess.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42498 on: December 02, 2020, 10:12:47 am »

Maybe my leftist friends are way more radical than my rightist friends (who are pretty much centrists) so maybe that's why they're more vocal.
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А если зло победит
Если меня ночью упекут
Не от петли же я умру
А умру я от любви
Не от петли же я умру
А умру я от любви

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42499 on: December 02, 2020, 10:19:07 am »

The differences we see might be those between those who ended up supporting a compromise candidate vs those who ended up supporting a compromised candidate?

Any anger out there hits at different stages of the cycle (as well as which fork in the road the cycle ends up taking, and observer-effect).
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Sky-Streamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42500 on: December 02, 2020, 10:30:36 am »

I think the left-wing people are more vocal than right-wing people is this;

The current system has history of allowing right-wing goals to be reached.
The current system, however, has a clear bias against left-wing goals.
Left-wing ppl have a problem with the system, and Right-wing people have a problem with how it's used.
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42501 on: December 02, 2020, 10:45:58 am »

America - Leftt-wing : It does not compute.
Danger, Will Robinson, Danger
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anewaname

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42502 on: December 02, 2020, 10:48:05 am »

Trump was not that easy to manipulate. When he looked to more authoritarian world leaders to give him support, it was against his enemies. That is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Not trying to call out @delphonso, this has been voiced by others over time....

The question of whether that was "right" for him to depends on who's feeling of "right" you are using ("feeling of right" because there is no global definition that doesn't f* over someone).
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42503 on: December 02, 2020, 10:53:19 am »

I think it's only the extreme right wing that doesn't like left-wing goals.

I would call myself a conservative person rather than liberal, but I like most of the left-wing goals. I just don't think the canonical left-wing approach can realize those goals.  For example, I would love to have education more accessible to everyone. Simply taxing everyone doesn't do that though - you can't just throw money at it. (You also can't take the extreme right-wing approach and just punish schools for "poor performance" by taking away their funding, hoping that somehow magically they will perform better because they have fewer resources?)  To get more accessible education, you have to encourage educators and instill a culture that values education so that quality supply is increased.

Same thing with health care - I'm all for affordable health care, but you can't just stop by saying it will be funded by tax dollars instead of private insurance.  You have to actually fix the system, not just make everyone (or "the rich") pay for it.

I think we also have to fix rent-seeking in all its forms, but I don't even see that as a left-wing platform topic (usually on the "fringe" parties talk about this one, although right-to-repair at least is gaining traction).

This is not even getting into the fact that the left wing is more overt in its "the government knows better than you / we are putting this rule in place for your own good" for decision making, while the right wing puts on a veneer of "you can make your own decisions!" but stacks the deck so that you can only choose from a very limited selection.
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Sky-Streamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42504 on: December 02, 2020, 11:11:30 am »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.

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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42505 on: December 02, 2020, 11:33:27 am »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.
I consider myself a social democrat (bordering on democratic socialist) with technocratic elements. Run society based on science and rationality, and slowly abolish capitalism to both minimize chaos and destruction in the wake of a revolution, and allow people to adapt better.

I don't fully agree with anarchism but you guys have a point.
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А если зло победит
Если меня ночью упекут
Не от петли же я умру
А умру я от любви
Не от петли же я умру
А умру я от любви

Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42506 on: December 02, 2020, 12:50:08 pm »

Maybe my leftist friends are way more radical than my rightist friends (who are pretty much centrists) so maybe that's why they're more vocal.
I mean, part of it's also probably because 2016 trump lost the popular vote by millions, y'know? Stateside there's legit grievance on that sort of issue, where multiple times in the last few decades POTUS elections have gone GOP despite not being who the american people actually voted for. It's easier to get loud over stuff that's not being pulled out of someone's ass.

That said, yeah, this is the loudest (and most bloody insane) I've seen right-wing folks over election results in a while. Krakens, imaginary counties full of voter fraud, GOP political critters actually telling their base to knock it off with the death threats and crap for once, shit's been fairly wild as post elections go. Not necessarily unexpected with how trump and the republicans have been doing messaging for a while now, but still wild.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42507 on: December 02, 2020, 01:42:19 pm »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.

I can debate, but I'm often wrong  ;D

One question I have about the "communist" concept of worker-owned means of production is - how is that different from companies today where workers own controlling shares in the company?  What makes it different?  I've often suspected one approach to UBI is to say that any company that has stock must have some portion of it owned "by the public", including dividend rights, where the dividends go straight into the public revenue, instead of through the complexity of the tax system.

I'm curious about the concept of "replacement of money with people assisting each other."  How do you avoid the downsides associated with barter?  This is an honest question - what would it look like? How do you ensure you have enough "unoccupied" houses in every location to facilitate people that want to move, for example?
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grave worm

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42508 on: December 02, 2020, 01:42:53 pm »

Would you like to debate, McTraveller? You seem like a nice person to debate with.

And, I think that, by the left, you may be referring to Authoritarian Leftists. I'm an Anarchist-Communist, which basically means I oppose all structures that unneccessarily restrict the rights and freedoms of the individual, combined with the communist beliefs of worker-owned means of production and replacement of money with people assisting each other. There are a lot of other leftists who believe things like this, such as Syndicalists, Social Democrats and some Individualist Anarchists.
I consider myself a social democrat (bordering on democratic socialist) with technocratic elements. Run society based on science and rationality, and slowly abolish capitalism to both minimize chaos and destruction in the wake of a revolution, and allow people to adapt better.

I don't fully agree with anarchism but you guys have a point.

Good luck on slowly reforming away capitalism as the oceans of the world start boiling over and equatorial regions that house billions of people are turned into inhospitable wastelands. And all the warm fuzzy liberal democracies where for now at least there's even a scintilla of political will for social democratic programs will morph into fascist fortresses (already happening) to keep out all the masses of poor brown people fleeing heat waves that cook your internal organs if you're outside. The only thing left to do is industrial sabotage I dunno write to your congressperson I guess.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42509 on: December 02, 2020, 01:47:12 pm »

Yeah, can confirm my rightist friends have been ranting about how it's all going to be fine in January when Trump uses his secret evidence that proves he really won.
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