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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 1995499 times)

MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42510 on: December 02, 2020, 01:53:16 pm »

Yeah, can confirm my rightist friends have been ranting about how it's all going to be fine in January when Trump uses his secret evidence that proves he really won.

The real october surprise is that the october surprise is coming in january.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42511 on: December 02, 2020, 02:01:56 pm »

I'm interested in the way Small Government Republicanism overlaps with the Anarcho-Communism (more the Anarcho half, obviously). It applies more to the personal rights that rich (and corporate) individuals suggest don't need to be infringed (unless that's the right not to be deemed a publisher for subscriber comments?), than actual everyday rights... though there's a fringe who seem to think it should be absolute...  but it sounds a bit like the whole thing about Atheists "just believing in one less god than you" could be extended to cover the differences in this area. ;)
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42512 on: December 02, 2020, 02:09:06 pm »

I'm a 'capitalism with regulatory safe-guards, protections and support structures' Keynesian-style leftist.  Which I think probably covers most of the 'left' that gets referred to by news media and I could swear used to make me a centralist but here we are.

So tax the wealthy to fund programs to give mobility and protection to the not-wealthy, including free education, free healthcare, and welfare systems, and infrastructure development. The true means of production.

These then allow for a more agile workforce capable of transitioning between careers easier as well as providing more educated higher quality employees which benefits businesses long-term. Support for those unable to work due to illness or disability, be it mental or physical, is also a moral duty of society and a role of the state is to protect and fulfil such moral duties of society.

Regulations and Unions combined to reduce, alleviate and counteract climate damage and protect citizens (so both the consumers and employees for Capitalism) as modern Capitalism alone is too focused on short-term gains, the next quarter but not the next decade, so there is a need for state-driven regulation and support structures to balance this out and ensure long-term success.

Salary is not a measure of success or worth, but perceived ease-of-replacement by your employer. From the POV of a business, the 'working class' are really better described as the 'replaceable class' and the first to go as we automate more. This means as automation increases and we reach the point where you have more workers than jobs due to the replacement of basic workers with the welfare system can then be expanded into a basic living income and new systems can start to emerge.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 02:21:21 pm by MorleyDev »
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42513 on: December 02, 2020, 02:55:40 pm »

Whenever people start talking about 'the economy' I can't help but think of Rosebud from Citizen Kane.  But that's just me I guess.  :P

It seems a certain section of society is never able to get over primitive acculumatism and commodity fetishism - why the fuck they got to take us down with them?
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42514 on: December 02, 2020, 03:03:57 pm »

I'm a 'capitalism with regulatory safe-guards, protections and support structures' Keynesian-style leftist.  Which I think probably covers most of the 'left' that gets referred to by news media and I could swear used to make me a centralist but here we are.

So tax the wealthy to fund programs to give mobility and protection to the not-wealthy, including free education, free healthcare, and welfare systems, and infrastructure development. The true means of production.

These then allow for a more agile workforce capable of transitioning between careers easier as well as providing more educated higher quality employees which benefits businesses long-term. Support for those unable to work due to illness or disability, be it mental or physical, is also a moral duty of society and a role of the state is to protect and fulfil such moral duties of society.

Regulations and Unions combined to reduce, alleviate and counteract climate damage and protect citizens (so both the consumers and employees for Capitalism) as modern Capitalism alone is too focused on short-term gains, the next quarter but not the next decade, so there is a need for state-driven regulation and support structures to balance this out and ensure long-term success.

Salary is not a measure of success or worth, but perceived ease-of-replacement by your employer. From the POV of a business, the 'working class' are really better described as the 'replaceable class' and the first to go as we automate more. This means as automation increases and we reach the point where you have more workers than jobs due to the replacement of basic workers with the welfare system can then be expanded into a basic living income and new systems can start to emerge.

Those sound good - and I like the goals.  But "tax the right to give free education" doesn't give you free education - it gives you "education funded by the rich." Without cultural changes to make the rich happy to do this, it's likely going to breed resentment and class-divide issues.

Also - "allow for a more agile workforce capable of transitioning between careers..." sounds like a great goal, but what does that mean? Also, why do we care to "benefit businesses long-term" - don't we want to benefit all of society, not just businesses?  What would this look like? Does it mean UBI so you can just quit your job and go to school and learn something else? Should society fund "career students"? These are the questions that are less obvious to address.  Or do you just say "yeah, there are enough people that aren't just going to live off UBI that it will all work, so we can tolerate the portion of people who do just sit there without producing anything."

For that's what ultimate communism says - that the portion of society that does produce, does it efficiently enough that it can support the "non productive" (injured, young, those that choose to do nothing) in a resource-efficient manner, in a way that doesn't collapse due to disrepair.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42515 on: December 02, 2020, 03:06:00 pm »

Whenever people start talking about 'the economy' I can't help but think of Rosebud from Citizen Kane.  But that's just me I guess.  :P

I think of the comet event in Europa Universalis IV.  Essentially a comet is sighted by your people and its seen as a bod omen by your people.  There's a bunch of excuses you can make but either way you lose a stability point, one of the excuses is "The economy, fools!"
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42516 on: December 02, 2020, 03:14:48 pm »

I wish I lived in more enlightened times.

[-1 stability ]

Funnily enough in Victoria II, you also get the comet sighted event. But because you live in enlightened times, it just gives you research points

MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42517 on: December 02, 2020, 03:37:09 pm »

Funnily enough in Victoria II, you also get the comet sighted event. But because you live in enlightened times, it just gives you research points

And in Stellaris, with a minor effect based on what ethics your civ runs on.  The science based ones being "yeah whatever".
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42518 on: December 02, 2020, 03:47:39 pm »

Also, why do we care to "benefit businesses long-term" - don't we want to benefit all of society, not just businesses?

What's good for society is good for business. The inverse isn't always true, but in the long-term businesses do benefit from access to a stable, healthy and well-educated workforce. Gender equality means more workers and more consumers for your products, racial equality means more workers and more consumers for your products, support for transgender means etc.

It's all well and good to talk about the moral imperative for these things, I'm on board with that, but that's just preaching to the converted. The morality of support for the unemployed, preventing climate change, gender/racial equality, free education, free healthcare, is all self-evident to people who agree with it, and laughable to those who don't, and you'll never win an argument on the morals alone.

You need to tie it to a pitch long-term success to sell it to the unconvinced. After a thing is normalised it'll be seen as moral, but you can't get it normalised by arguing it's moral. Getting it in and then normalised is how you change the culture.

Those sound good - and I like the goals.  But "tax the right to give free education" doesn't give you free education - it gives you "education funded by the rich." Without cultural changes to make the rich happy to do this, it's likely going to breed resentment and class-divide issues.

Which then leads to this, the wealthy benefit from access to a well-educated workforce. The industrial revolution was driven in-part by the sudden access to a basically educated workforce, and it's still true for businesses that the better educated your workforce and consumers the more products can be developed and consumed. Can't include instruction magazines to people who can't read, can't sell a mobile phone to people with no IT skills. There's no upper limit on this, the more educated a person is the wider a pool of potential products they can consume. The more educated an employee is, the wider a range of tools they can wield. There may need to be a friendly reminder of this fact every now and then.

Also - "allow for a more agile workforce capable of transitioning between careers..." sounds like a great goal, but what does that mean? What would this look like? Does it mean UBI so you can just quit your job and go to school and learn something else? Should society fund "career students"? These are the questions that are less obvious to address.  Or do you just say "yeah, there are enough people that aren't just going to live off UBI that it will all work, so we can tolerate the portion of people who do just sit there without producing anything."

For that's what ultimate communism says - that the portion of society that does produce, does it efficiently enough that it can support the "non productive" (injured, young, those that choose to do nothing) in a resource-efficient manner, in a way that doesn't collapse due to disrepair.

Yes on both accounts. Allow people who want to go back to education to do so free of charge, maybe a limit on how often (like you can't go back for free for 5 years or something) but I find that unlikely to be needed. It's already true that people who aren't trying to learn get kicked off their course, and the people who are trying are unlikely to just keep at that indefinitely instead of moving into a career around their topic of study.

Offer financial incentives for businesses to encourage them to hire and train rather than always look for prior experience (which again, makes future efforts to find those with prior experience easier). I'm fine with some gentle pressure for employment for those capable of working until we hit that point of more job seekers than job positions, but morally it seems odd that there are people who would rather the bottom 5% who need support not get it than the top 5% who do not need support do get it. The balance will never be perfect, I'd rather overshoot the coverage than undershoot.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 04:39:03 pm by MorleyDev »
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feelotraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42519 on: December 02, 2020, 04:04:15 pm »

Funnily enough in Victoria II, you also get the comet sighted event. But because you live in enlightened times, it just gives you research points

And in Stellaris, with a minor effect based on what ethics your civ runs on.  The science based ones being "yeah whatever".

Meh, at least they could give us some 'Green Vapours' to usher in the New World (from one Wells [sic] to another...).
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42520 on: December 02, 2020, 05:52:03 pm »

So, the latest Trump (re?)Tweet has the following claim:
Quote
In today's update, Chairwoman @kelliwardaz announces the findings from our investigation of 100 duplicate ballots, in which TWO votes were discovered to have been altered and removed from President @realDonaldTrump's total.

...which to me does not say "Trump should have won", but instead points towards Trump having even fewer votes if fully corrected.

(Having identified duplicated votes, something Trump encouraged his supporters to do to 'test' the system, just 1/50th had been identified and corrected, both Trumpite. So of the (low quantity) of all possible duplicates, the chances are that further adjustments towards accuracy will again 'favour' the Trump camp by removing even more erroneous/duplicitous duplicates from the totals.)

Or maybe they just aren't using words I understand (rather than using words the know the 'base' will gleefully misunderstand).


Oh, and if you chose the numbers 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 in the South African lottery, congraulations! You (and 19 others) just won (a 20th-share of) the Powerball winnings! And yet more people who don't understand statistics say this is "impossible" and must be a 'fix'. Just like some armchair-/flipchart-staticians continue to try to apply to various US vote counts (but only ones that they didn't win).
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42521 on: December 02, 2020, 07:52:27 pm »

Has anyone been on Parlor?

Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42522 on: December 02, 2020, 07:57:00 pm »

A parlor is a type of room, though in your case it is titled, so likely no
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42523 on: December 02, 2020, 08:43:10 pm »

Probably means Parler, which is basically twitter for people that got their whackjob ass banned from twitter (or want to be around folks that did), near as I've noticed. Folks running it have leaned into cultivating a user base that leans heavily conservative, more or less.
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42524 on: December 02, 2020, 08:49:22 pm »

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