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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3535339 times)

Dostoevsky

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42540 on: December 09, 2020, 01:06:48 am »

Would striking this stuff down set a precedent?
If so, they will surely refuse to hear it, so this strategy can be used in the future.

The Pennsylvania situation isn't precedent since they simply turned down an emergency request - this isn't a formal ruling on the merits, though it does imply how they feel about the merits.

I would've expected SCOTUS to at least take it up, even if they couldn't give the plaintiff what was asked in the lawsuit. Act 77 was in contradiction with the wording of PA's state constitution, and the PA legislature hadn't done an amendment. SCOTUS could've ruled that PA needs to amend their state constitution going forward if they want to keep the extended voting period. Trump's judges are allegedly constitutionalists.

Setting aside everything else, generally speaking the U.S. Supreme Court doesn't weigh in on state constitution issues - they defer to state courts on issues that are strictly matters of state law/constitutional issues. (While not explicit, that's often inferred from the whole state's rights thing. State constitutions are free to get into topics that the federal constitution doesn't tread, and it doesn't really make sense for the Supreme Court to tell a state what it meant if it's not rubbing up against any federal laws or the U.S. constitution.) And here the state supreme court unanimously tossed it.

Edit: For example, if the PA law (or constitution!) raised a potential issue of disenfranchising voters in a way that could run afoul of the 14th or 15th amendments, then the S.Ct. would be more within their bounds to take it up. The U.S. constitution generally gives a lot of leeway to states on how to run their elections.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 01:12:37 am by Dostoevsky »
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Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42541 on: December 09, 2020, 05:31:57 am »

...as in D9nald/Mitch conspiring to speed-stack the SC before Joe even gets into the driving seat?

(Classic "it's what they/we would do, so therefore we/they cannot not be doing it" psychology, as exhibited. Just like "Well, we tried to (or did?) cheat bigly and it looks like we lost, so obviously they're even bigger cheats...")

No, they can't without control over the House. It was a plan devised by President FDR to have the Democrat-controlled House and Senate pass a law to expand the number of Justices the President is allowed to nominate. Democrats of the time didn't go along with it.

Certain Democrats and pundits floated the idea again when Trump nominated Barret to replace Ginsburg. They won't be able to pull it off without winning the Georgia runoff elections and taking control of the Senate.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 05:34:48 am by Bumber »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42542 on: December 09, 2020, 06:24:05 am »

The supreme court doesn't get involved in state law matters because they can't and the only way to try to bring them in is arguing that:

a. a state court of last resort heard your case and made a ruling
b. that ruling was in error
c. that error violated federal law in some way

Asking SCOTUS to step in and determine if a state election violated laws passed by the legislature of that state after the state supreme court already ruled on the matter is only a good idea if you REALLY want to piss off the highest court in the land.

Even if they could do something like this, it is the LAST FUCKING THING a bunch of originalists would EVER do, you might see cases where more liberal interpretations could prevail, but who here thinks the liberal members of the court would happily disenfranchise millions of voters in multiple states to appease a big orange toddler throwing a hissyfit?

Go on raise your hands... no no, higher, all the way, now turn your palm towards your face, and slap yourself hard enough to knock some goddamn sense into you.

Some of these legal gambits may have fared better if filed by lawyers who weren't compete fucking morons, spelled properly, accused the right people, cited the right precedents, requested appropriate remedy, and above all else: HAPPENED WHEN THESE LAWS THEY'RE BITCHING ABOUT WERE CHANGED.

If your rights are violated by a law passed in march but you wait until you lose an election in november to care enough to file a suit in fucking december about it... you're shit out of luck asshole. You didn't care enough to check almost a year ago what was happening, you didn't even try to do anything about it before the election, and now that you lost it is suddenly not just the most important thing ever to remedy it... you want to throw away the votes which millions of people cast in good faith because you're a bitchbaby who can't handle losing?

Get completely and utterly fucked is how a layman would say it.

The courts and defendants will use several pages written by capable lawyers to explain all the ways you can go fuck yourself, exactly how hard you should go fuck yourself, and how long you can fuck yourself before you can cry about it again.
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TamerVirus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42543 on: December 09, 2020, 10:58:44 am »

Here's the actual text of the lawsuit for anyone interested
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grave worm

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42544 on: December 09, 2020, 04:56:15 pm »

...if the police is abolished then how will you guys enforce laws? Even in a rehabilitative system someone needs to arrest criminals. Just wondering.

The police are used overwhelmingly to oppress poor marginalized communities, when was the last time you saw white collar criminals being tackled to the ground and beaten half to death or gunned down in the street while unarmed. White collar crime is usually much more destructive to other peoples' lives than someone who is using illegal drugs, but other than a few highly publicized outliers they let those people off with a slap on the wrist or a fine while they fill up prisons with poor black and brown drug offenders.
You never actually answered Max's question... I don't feel like having vigilantes enforce laws is a good idea.

What makes cops different from "vigilantes"? They sure don't seem to have a problem with vigilantes if they're the gun-toting white racist type.

Not to come off like a jerk but sorry if you think there couldn't possibly be any alternatives to policing, an institution that's existed for about .00001% of human history.

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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42545 on: December 09, 2020, 05:18:11 pm »

The only 0.00001% of human history people hasn't been murdering the shit out of each other.

Some would even go as far as saying the best 0.00001% of history. The most peaceful for sure.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42546 on: December 09, 2020, 05:22:45 pm »

Quote
What makes cops different from "vigilantes"?

The answer is "Lawful authority." Doesn't mean what they do is lawful, just that society has agreed they have the authority to do something.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42547 on: December 09, 2020, 05:27:26 pm »

I think it's pretty clear that we aren't meeting this standard, given that cops are enforcing laws that people overwhelmingly want repealed, in ways they think are grossly inappropriate, resulting in punishments that are blatently disgustingly cruel, and triggering mass civil unrest in response.

There's no lawfulness in this law. There's just a bunch of shitheads who refuse to govern. And if legislators and cops both cannot understand that is the reality we are in now? If they're that gluttonously corrupt and dismissive of the general population? Then they aren't just going to face the inevitable outcome of that scenario, they deserve it.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42548 on: December 09, 2020, 05:29:04 pm »

Depends slightly on how far back one defines "human" history. 0.00001% of 500,000 is just 5 years.

Much as I'm sure he'd like to claim the credit, I'm fairly certain that the concept of policing was not in fact invented by Donald Trump.


Considering we have records of laws and law enforcement as far back as Sumer (if not more, I'm not hugely knowledgeable on the subject), I'd wager that we've had some form of policing system for some reasonable amount of time.

The trick, of course, is to not let it fester into a bloated carcass of self-preservation and bullying. Then some reforms might be needed.


EDIT: I should probably not attempt math at midnight. Yeah.

grave worm

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42549 on: December 09, 2020, 05:42:51 pm »

The only 0.00001% of human history people hasn't been murdering the shit out of each other.

Some would even go as far as saying the best 0.00001% of history. The most peaceful for sure.

Ok Hobbes next time someone tells me we should maybe rethink letting a state-sanctioned vigilante gang run around killing people I'll just tell them that we're living in the best most peaceful time in history.
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voliol

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42550 on: December 09, 2020, 05:48:31 pm »

0.00001% of 500,000 is 0.05 years, or about 18 days.
2,000,000 years, the age of the Homo genus, gives 71 days.
4,000,000 years, the time since we split off the chimanzees and bonobos, gives 142 days.

I'm also unsure about history of policing, but I doubt 2020 should get the credit for inventing it, horrible as the year may have been.

Ninjaedit:

Incidentally, the age of the universe gives 1,380 years, placing the birth of policing at 640 AD. If you allow for some leeway, and accept that humans and other things made out of energy are basically equivalent it's no surprise; it must have been directly caused by the burning of the Library of Alexandria, or maybe the founding of Lille.

grave worm

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42551 on: December 09, 2020, 05:59:59 pm »

0.00001% of 500,000 is 0.05 years, or about 18 days.
2,000,000 years, the age of the Homo genus, gives 71 days.
4,000,000 years, the time since we split off the chimanzees and bonobos, gives 142 days.

I'm also unsure about history of policing, but I doubt 2020 should get the credit for inventing it, horrible as the year may have been.

Thanks for your math, apologies for the hyperbole I meant .0005% of human history if humans have been around for 500,000 years, so about 250 years which is around when modern policing began to take the shape as we recognize it today. Maybe we can trace police-like institutions back to the earliest civilizations but in whatever form they've taken throughout history they've been used basically to keep poor people and slaves in line.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42552 on: December 10, 2020, 05:18:53 am »

The only 0.00001% of human history people hasn't been murdering the shit out of each other.

Some would even go as far as saying the best 0.00001% of history. The most peaceful for sure.

Ok Hobbes next time someone tells me we should maybe rethink letting a state-sanctioned vigilante gang run around killing people I'll just tell them that we're living in the best most peaceful time in history.

Nah, try not building strawmen instead, it's a better approach.
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TD1

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42553 on: December 10, 2020, 05:47:39 am »

Also noone answered the original question

If not police, who's doing the necessary arrests? Or are no arrests necessary?
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NJW2000

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #42554 on: December 10, 2020, 06:04:11 am »

I mean, there are several obvious possible answers to that. One is something new - an alternative organisation(s) set up, covering similar things to where the police used to be. The other is just: not the police?

In terms of making arrests... as I understand it, the conventional police aren't the only ones authorised to make arrests in the US. There's anything from private citizen's arrests up to FBI powers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_abolition_movement

Probably helpful to have a read through wiki or google. Didn't know much about this myself two minutes ago.
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