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[Cyroth]

This (the antivax thing) is what happens when you take things meant as an allegory (like 70% of the Bible I'd say) literally.

I'm fairly confident most christians don't actually read the bible.

My experience has been that the more "religious" a person is, the less they represtent the actual values of their religion.

[Loud Whispers]

Well it's also important noting that each Christian branch defines the source of their values differently; it's mostly a protestant thing to go sola scriptura

[MaxTheFox]

This (the antivax thing) is what happens when you take things meant as an allegory (like 70% of the Bible I'd say) literally.

I'm fairly confident most christians don't actually read the bible.

My experience has been that the more "religious" a person is, the less they represtent the actual values of their religion.

Yeah, despite what I say sometimes I'm no Bible-thumper. It's almost completely personal for me. I don't bother anyone regarding matters of religion and I expect nobody else to do so. Even towards Satanists, it's live-and-let-live. You can worship anything, just don't (try to) force it on me.

[LordBaal]

As it should be with a lot of things, from sexual preferences to religion, they are nobody else business but yours.
When getting married (we did it in the catholic church despite me being a catholic raised turned agnostic and she what passes by protestant here because her church would not marry us) I remember the words of the priest on a interview we had with him.
"I see the bible like tv history. The old testament is like those old black and white tv, lot of static and you barely get something, then as you read forwards you tune better,  and you start to get a better understanding but there's something still missing. Keep reading and by the time of the new testament the tv is a crt color one and as you keep going eventually it's one of those fancy super hd ones and the message Jesus gave us is pretty clear: Love. Love each other as you would love you. Period, and what this means? Respect, care and tolerate each other regardless of whatever."

[Starver]

When I was early-teens (pretty much areligious[1]) some of the usual suspects came in to school and basically handed out handy-sized bibles and 'answered any questions' in their gentle happy-clappy version of a kind of missionary-style zeal. Somewhere I still have mine, I'm sure, but it's not where I immediately thought it might be (probably in a different pile of half-forgotten tomes, slid into a gap it nicely slots into) so who exactly these Gideon-maybes were I don't currently know.

I think I was mostly dissapointed that this was the New Testament, only, as I clearly remember discovering when I had browsed through looking for the 'intetesting stuff'; which I later realised is probably OT, on the whole. I read what I got, though. Not sure I could ever quote chapter and verse[2], but I think I get the general gist of the bits that I do subscribe to, and it meshes well with the gist of any other 'decent' religion (also humanism, Bill And Ted, etc).


BTW, super-coincidental honourable mention goes to the latest xkcd, in the context of where this thread's current conversation is going...


[1] I'd years before been registered as a Cub Scout as "'CofE', I suppose", because they needed something to write in their little ledger, alongside emergency contact details, and in general the question didn't ever really come up because I could sing hymns in School Assembly as good (or as bad) as I could sing any other song they shone up on the OHP screen for hundreds of kids to attempt to reproduce synchronously if individually atonously.

[2] John:11:35!

[Dunamisdeos]

This (the antivax thing) is what happens when you take things meant as an allegory (like 70% of the Bible I'd say) literally.

I'm fairly confident most christians don't actually read the bible.

My experience has been that the more "religious" a person is, the less they represtent the actual values of their religion.

As the apparent Token Bible-Thumping Christian, I reserve the right to go on multi paragraph tirades regarding conversations like this.

This is however, also completely accurate in my experience as well. The loud, tradition-and-ritual obsessed folks are (usually) the ones with the least interest in leading a life that actually reflects the positive values taught therein.

IMO the huge logical disparity between a religion that purports to teach positive values and the large number of its "followers" that practice the exact opposite results from the altogether too common idea that religion needs to be in an authoritative governmental or political position. Should be as separate as possible, otherwise you start getting what amounts to a natural supremacy doctrine. Doesn't surprise me at all how often that parallels beliefs of racism/classism/etc.

[Vector]

I want to mention that Judaism uses the Old Testament but enriches it with various commentaries; and while heavily based on scripture, focuses on arguing with, interpreting, and doing the scripture, as opposed to obeying the scripture. People often treat Judaism as Christianity light but it's an equally developed and very different religion, whose central emphasis is on good works.

[scriver]

Note: most churches really frown on you doing the scripture during service

[McTraveller]

@Duna I think there are more of "us" here than you might know

I also am impressed about the insight of the Founding Fathers and their attempt at separation of church and state, for the reasons you mentioned.

I think it's a terrible trend to have religious ideas codified in law, insomuch as those religious ideas go beyond the basic civil laws; I mean "don't murder, don't steal, don't peddle lies" are pretty basic regardless of religion.

Sadly society (and politics) seems to have lost the plot on "don't peddle lies", and the other two are under pressure as well, if you take the broad approach of including "oppression" under murder, and people no longer putting any value in a social contract in general.

[LordBaal]

The problem with anything basically is when it goes too far, and today society is conditioned to take extreme positions and poles. That your my way or the highway, if you are not with me you are against me attitude is really tiresome.

When I was younger the discussion of why people are so polarized and took politics like rabid sports fans supporting a team came up quite often when debating Chavists here. Also it was quite hard for them to comprehend that I wanted a change not to fuck them over but so everybody could have a better place to live, but they never once understood the concept of everyone having decent lives, it was always either you or me.

Extremes, on every level you might have them, are bad.

[Dunamisdeos]

@Duna I think there are more of "us" here than you might know

Yeah, but I'm the one who goes on rants the most, I think :>

I want to mention that Judaism uses the Old Testament but enriches it with various commentaries; and while heavily based on scripture, focuses on arguing with, interpreting, and doing the scripture, as opposed to obeying the scripture. People often treat Judaism as Christianity light but it's an equally developed and very different religion, whose central emphasis is on good works.

This is really, really the right way to go about it from a Christian standpoint as well, and it's a major failing that more arguing/interpreting/doing is not focused upon as a matter of course. I have the impression, and I obviously do not have the personal experience to say this with confidence, that this is more of a problem with American Christianity than it is elsewhere. There is and has been a HUGE conflation with American Nationalism and Christianity for my entire life. That REAL Christianity exists here in America, right next to Apple Pie and Backyard BBQ, and that God specifically identifies American Christianity as the standard.

It really relegates Christianity here as an extension of secular Nationalism, which is awful, and dangerous. I believe this is why there's such a huge conflation with the right and American Christianity.

[Vector]

Yeeeeees, but Judaism is orthoprax, as opposed to Christianity's orthodox. They are different ':V

And Judaism in particular considers free access to abortion as a clear-cut matter of religious freedom! Freedom of religion respecting Judaism would require all people to have access to abortion as they desired it ...

[The_Explorer]

I'm just gonna put this in ameripol, cause it probably effect the US anyway

But videos being leaked on twitter showing an endless stream of military vehicles+missiles+troops+equipment going through/to wenzhou which looking on google maps is right near taiwan pretty much. Then they just told everyone in china to stock up on emergency rations.

Currently only one tweet I can find about it, this morning there were more videos up so I dunno what happened to the other ones

https://twitter.com/BtcAkira/status/1455473010987569155

I mean its twitter, but I've actually seen useful stuff come out of north korea of uhm, probably things meant not to be seen (well things they wouldn't want you to see), of all places even though only seen it twice, on twitter (both times it disappeared quite quickly pretty much almost as soon as it popped up) so its not all useless if want to find more "hidden" info. But I don't really pay attention to them so maybe its more common than not.

Either way, seems they are really gearing up for something.

[LordBaal]

You know when I read about asking people to stock up food and that it was due some electron and fuel rationing I tried very hard to ignore it could be a Taiwan thing.... thanks for bursting my happiness bubble.

Hopefully is some bravado or bully movement to pressure Taiwan to give in or something.... would really hate a big war or even a global one if things get enough traction... many jerks would jump at the chace of playing war right now.

[scriver]

And Judaism in particular considers free access to abortion as a clear-cut matter of religious freedom! Freedom of religion respecting Judaism would require all people to have access to abortion as they desired it ...

Sure, but if you're only going to count progressive branches then that goes for Christianity too.