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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 3532688 times)

Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48480 on: May 25, 2022, 05:55:02 pm »

Again, citation needed. What legislation have the Democrats brought forward that will ban handguns in the aftermath of this shooting?
So, I had originally said none. But I was wrong.
Two days later, a bill was proposed.
Congress.gov website

Question, for clarification: "Two days later than" what? Because two days later than "this shooting" is tomorrow.

Is it even the same event is being talked about? Resolve that, and the discussion might become sensible.


Edit: NVM, answered in-between then and now. I suspected it was a misreading, but just wasn't quite sure by who.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 05:58:48 pm by Starver »
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48481 on: May 25, 2022, 06:01:24 pm »

EJ time travels, clearly.

With regards to gun control and mass shootings: all arguments against it remain within the nirvana fallacy. 'Gun control will not stop all mass shootings, nor prevent all deaths, and therefore aren't worth the effort'. Since it won't completely solve the problem, it isn't a solution. The reasoning is faulty because saving just one kids life would make it worth it. Hell, just the reduction in suicides would be a great humanitarian work. The evidence is clear that access to firearms increases at least the number of casualties, if not also the frequency of mass shootings.

MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48482 on: May 25, 2022, 06:08:36 pm »

Odd how the "pro-life" party won't save kids from bullets.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48483 on: May 25, 2022, 07:13:00 pm »

The problem with the argument "we have to ban guns Because Of The Children" is that, in the current political climate of this country, anything coming even remotely close to something that looks like laws confiscating any type of personal weapons is likely to escalate into a shooting civil war.

I don't have a better solution other than seriously people, be friends with your neighbors and people in your communities.  You want to know what prevents this kind of thing better than gun control? Making people feel like they are people and they matter.  What has changed in the past few years isn't a sudden increase in the availability of weapons; rather, it's an increase in isolation and dehumanization.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48484 on: May 25, 2022, 07:18:42 pm »

Don't forget the 30-40 years of economic stagnation and wealth disparity.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48485 on: May 25, 2022, 07:36:53 pm »

Stagnation and wealth disparity don't produce that kind of behavior. Poor people with good connections often rank higher in "happiness" measures than "rich" people that are not connected.

Also, up until about 10 years ago, yeah the ultra-rich were getting richer way faster than the rest of us, but everyone else was also still getting richer.  I think only since the 2008 recession has it been that things like homeownership have started to drop.  Homeownership is perhaps the one bellwether that really concerns me, because that means people have far less vested interest in what's going on around them.  No amount of internet-bread-and-circuses can replace that kind of... well literal community building.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48486 on: May 25, 2022, 08:40:08 pm »

What has changed in the past few years isn't a sudden increase in the availability of weapons; rather, it's an increase in isolation and dehumanization.
Except that's been happening all over the world, without similarly regular mass shootings, nevermind school ones. What's changed (to whatever extent it has) stateside is that... in an environment with copious firearm access.

e: uh, with similar energy, holy shit has anyone else noticed the onion?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 08:43:11 pm by Frumple »
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48487 on: May 25, 2022, 08:43:22 pm »

It is a factor.  People can't build relationships if they need to work two or three jobs to survive.  People can't build families if they can't put a roof over their heads, can't afford to have kids.

Lack of economic prospects means a lack of hope for the future.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48488 on: May 25, 2022, 09:03:08 pm »

What has changed in the past few years isn't a sudden increase in the availability of weapons; rather, it's an increase in isolation and dehumanization.
Except that's been happening all over the world, without similarly regular mass shootings, nevermind school ones. What's changed (to whatever extent it has) stateside is that... in an environment with copious firearm access.

e: uh, with similar energy, holy shit has anyone else noticed the onion?

https://www.theonion.com/

That is quite something.

I was moved. Also very angry.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48489 on: May 25, 2022, 09:19:34 pm »

What has changed in the past few years isn't a sudden increase in the availability of weapons; rather, it's an increase in isolation and dehumanization.
Except that's been happening all over the world, without similarly regular mass shootings, nevermind school ones. What's changed (to whatever extent it has) stateside is that... in an environment with copious firearm access.

e: uh, with similar energy, holy shit has anyone else noticed the onion?

https://www.theonion.com/

That is quite something.

I was moved. Also very angry.

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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48490 on: May 25, 2022, 09:23:32 pm »

It also keeps going for that same length a couple times over. Apparently 1 for every current casualty of the latest texas shooting, looks like. They've done the article itself (they've been reposting it marginally edited to fit the latest for a while now) before, but that's the first time I've noticed them doing, well... that.
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Robsoie

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48491 on: May 25, 2022, 10:14:10 pm »

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country
(note it's school shootings only, other type of mass shootings aren't included and some numbers may be wrong as they're inconsistent with the reported amount of attacks, read the article below the graphics for more reference)
Then to go along those numbers, it's good to check :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#Comparison
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 10:18:17 pm by Robsoie »
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Lidku

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48492 on: May 25, 2022, 10:16:28 pm »

So the Salvador Ramos guy is a REALLY weird case to me (such as all of these mass shooters are, typically)..

With what income did he get an opportunity to purchase guns with? He was 18, with no information regarding if he ever had a job.

Who give or granted him the money?

His grandpa, Rolando Reyes, said himself that he is a past convicted former felon; so he wouldn't even be able to purchase guns at all (presumably by further inference from that statement, Salvador Ramos wouldn't be able to even acquire weapons from his grandpa through stealing them from him).

Also, Ronald Reyes said he was totally unaware Ramos had the firearms, saying that if he had known, he would've reported his own grandson.

His grandparents that he stayed with are the maternal ones, since his dad seems to be nowhere in the picture, and it's been reported that he even began living with his grandparents, because he got into a big fight with his mom.

His mom herself, from RUMORS, mind you, seems to be a druggie/addict. It's unlikely that'd she gave much care to him or would even give him money for anything, other than for buying drugs.

His grandma seems to be a disciplinarian type, considering the initial start-up of the shooting, she and him got into an argument about Ramos not graduating.

With Texas' bizarre gun laws, we can glean that he purchased them legally (?).. I guess?

But again, HOW? With what money? Who financed him? Not only that, it seems Texas' gun laws doesn't even have a waiting list (citation needed, I'm just going off of secondary and tertiary sources) since Ramos just bough them literally right at his 18 birthday.

How expensive is the average AR-15 and handgun, at that (don't what model he was using, so it's just generic "handgun".. sorry 'bout that)?

If Salvador Ramos was a loner-bullied type, from what connection and/or social network did he manage to gain, to somehow lend him money for firearms?

Not only that, why weren't the red-flags heeded when he started posting his guns on Instagram and other social media sites?


Just generally, between the shooting of African-Americans in Buffalo, the shooting of Taiwanese-Americans / Taiwanese-Immigrant churchgoers... and now this... America has a serious gun problem.

Ironically, the growing contention I feel we have with this problem, might bellow into another civil war, as more pressure is put to greater restraints to gun access and use; Ironic, because GUNS will be the devastating impact of such a theorized (and hopefully NEVER) occurring civil war in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 10:26:28 pm by Lidku »
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48493 on: May 25, 2022, 10:29:42 pm »

I never said they were equal lies.  That was never my point.
My point was dishonestly exists on both sides of the aisle.  No political party is good and virtuous.  Just be careful with politicians, ok?

It might be worth trying to delineate between whether the reaction of the parties to these massacres and other issues is a "lie" or just insincere.

Insincerity is going to be present to some degree in any political system, such as in the excessive degree to which certain things get emphasized or exploited for gain at any given moment; to me this is insincere because it suggests an eager willingness from most politicians to subordinate their genuine views to what's personally expedient or in service of some power strategy. Characterizing it as a "lie" however is something very different due to the implication that the "liars" are harboring a hidden ulterior motive contrary or totally orthogonal to their public position.

I think the imagined ulterior motive behind gun control is often:

1) Nancy Pelosi is strumming her fingers on her office desk waiting for the day when she can disarm the humble Patriots, thereby removing the only bulwark protecting Freedom from a "liberal-fascist" takeover (the only bulwark is some LARPers playing in the woods)

2) Guns are a politically useful wedge issue which allows an increasingly incompetent and corrupt ruling class to redirect growing political frustration into channels that are totally nonthreatening to the status-quo, and this is actively and consciously exploited (perhaps even safeguarded)

It's probably obvious that I personally think that 1) betrays a catastrophic misunderstanding of politics and reality. The democrats write useless legislation on guns full of loopholes and basic misunderstandings (to the extent that they try at all) but I don't think it can be doubted that most of them genuinely favor gun control for the face-value reasons they present (even if they are "insincere" at times in terms of how things are emphasized or their own expectations of taking realistic action while simultaneously calling for it).

On the other hand, I also think 2) is at least a little bit too cynical; it should at least be thought of as an emergent factor rather than something conspiratorial. But to the extent that 2) does exist, it's very blatant that the bread and butter of the GOP is exploiting several seemingly-intractable wedge issues such as gun control to protect the status-quo and steer the conversation in useless directions. In this capacity, I think it does go beyond basic insincerity (I can't even imagine believing that someone like Mitch McConnell cares in the slightest one way or the other about guns) well into into "liar with an ulterior motive" territory.
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #48494 on: May 25, 2022, 10:34:17 pm »

A rifle and a side arm is still only a couple hundred bucks. Around the 300-500 range depending on where you are and how much they've increased since I left the US. That's within range for a teen to save, as most American teens have jobs during high school.

However that would also suggest quite a lot of forethought for this kind of thing which is even more disturbing.
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